Duration
In this episode, we dive into the tricky territory of helping others. Is it possible that our best intentions can actually do harm? We explore the line between helping and hurting, how to build real, reciprocal relationships, and what it means to approach others with humility and care. This conversation made us both rethink the way we see “helping.”
Pronch :
Hi I’m Pronch
Adam :
and I am Adam, and this is Sacred Skepticism, a podcast where we, two friends delve into the depths of spirituality and belief figuring out where we overlap where we share a ton of common ground and when we are far apart as well.
Pronch :
Each Episode unfolds as a unique journey through our evolving perspectives, and we get to see how each other sees the world
Adam :
And this conversation started and then built and built so we encourage you actually to start from the beginning of this season 1 as the episodes build on the conversation that unfolds as we go.
Pronch :
So Take a moment, sit back, relax and explore with us as we uncover the next layer of our shared exploration
Adam :
We love having these conversations, and what makes it even better is knowing that you’re following along with us, So, welcome to Sacred Skepticism
Pronch: so how are you doing?
Adam: I’m good. It’s been it’s. I don’t know if we can pull back the curtain, but it’s been a while since we talk. So we’re coming in here with with with some time since. Since we last talked, we’ve both been busy in life and work, so.
Pronch: It’s true.
Adam: So I’m good. I’m looking out my window, and it’s it’s a distinctly different season than the last time we talked, so.
Pronch: It’s true.
Adam: But
Pronch: We
Adam: I’m
Pronch: both
Adam: good.
Pronch: have very busy summers. We both have very busy
Adam: Yeah.
Pronch: times during the summer when we’re working on things for our for our life that are beyond this.
Adam: Yes. Yeah, exactly. So yeah. Family stuff and and it’s going well over here. And, and the rhythms of the rhythms of this last couple of months have been they’ve it’s been busy on my end, but also I can’t help and I feel like I’m I bring this up all the time, but I just keep comparing it to like the years of like 2020 and 2021. And it’s just so like refreshing to be busy with normal things and not
Pronch: Yeah.
Adam: busy just like during, like the COVID, like, like the, the lockdown days of just everyday was the same and every day was Zoom. So even though it’s
Pronch: So.
Adam: been busy the last few months, it’s been wonderful to just be busy doing like normal things and being able to like socially and work wise. Just so many things that we weren’t able to do for the few years kind of before the last 18 months, as we’ve, you know, returned to some kind of normalcy.
Pronch: It’s.
Adam: So so it’s it’s felt like a good busy, even if I’m tired and ready for a break.
Pronch: I definitely, definitely hear that and agree. And yeah, we’re getting into a season where there might be a bit of breaks, but there’s also a lot of family time coming up and I’m looking forward to that. I always love spending time with family and friends over over holidays and things like that. So I’m
Adam: Where
Pronch: really looking
Adam: does your
Pronch: forward
Adam: dad,
Pronch: to that.
Adam: your family still live? And I don’t know if you’re in Sierra, but
Pronch: The
Adam: I
Pronch: push push launch was
Adam: was like,
Pronch: where I was born and raised.
Adam: yeah, do they still
Pronch: Yeah.
Adam: live there? I remember picking you up
Pronch: No,
Adam: from there a few times
Pronch: no.
Adam: and it was like a cottage country, like, right, like between Kitchener and
Pronch: Yeah.
Adam: go out.
Pronch: No.
Adam: It was beautiful.
Pronch: Lived on lived on Pushkin’s Lake, actually. And it was
Adam: Yeah.
Pronch: really,
Adam: You lived
Pronch: really
Adam: on
Pronch: nice.
Adam: the lake?
Pronch: I did,
Adam: That’s
Pronch: I,
Adam: right.
Pronch: I loved it there. But no, my, my, my, my sisters moved to Toronto, my parents have moved to kind of north of Brampton area and, and I am in Oakville. And so that area of our lives is behind us. And I do miss it. But it’s nice that my parents are as close as they are to, to, to us. And my sister’s not too far off either, so it’s. It’s nice. How are you? Your family’s kind of moved around a bit, isn’t
Adam: Yeah.
Pronch: it?
Adam: Yeah. Like. Yeah. My. Since we were in high school, I. Well, when we were in high. Yeah, we were in high school. Almost every. Almost all my family lived in Kitchener. My one one of my brothers lives in Thailand now,
Pronch: Oh,
Adam: and the other one
Pronch: wow.
Adam: lives in Burlington. And my parents do still live in Kitchener, but not in the the house that we lived in in then. So yeah. So a bit of moving around and. Yeah. We don’t have our childhood home anymore either but, but still kind of around the KW area for. For. Or at least. At least the southern Ontario area for everybody. But. But my.
Pronch: Mm
Adam: My.
Pronch: hmm.
Adam: My middle brother.
Pronch: Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so where we where we left off was we were talking about the ideas of other other people’s beliefs and science. And sometimes things that we, you know, come to know as being scientific factors, as I would say. And you may find people, beings being worshiped for things like rain dances or sun, you know, sun gods and this and that. And and you were you were kind of wanting to poke at me for why I would think we should kind of go and correct information. So can you kind of like set up your angle on that and ask me the questions and stuff? Because I just think it’s very I remember I was very, very interested in your angle on that, and I would love to fill in on mine.
Adam: Yeah, sure. So when we were talking about that, I think it was it was something that came from me because I think I would have a set, especially a few years ago, I probably would have like identified and been in the exact same kind of thinking as you’re in. And so along the way, I feel like I’ve had helpful people, particularly particularly leaders, not just in faith circles, but just in social activism and and civic leadership, leaders of people of color, black, indigenous and people of color who have helped kind of unveil for me some of the ways that that is is is kind of a colonial lens that we would take to something. And so so I would say I definitely probably would have identified in that same way and I’ve kind of shifted a little bit. And my and my thinking on that is that the the to set it up, I feel that the, the pull for needing to for us needing to kind of align worldviews and perspectives is something that gets used by the Colonial Project a lot. And so my thought on that, and I guess my question to you would be when we’re coming at a different culture and again, maybe even we need to be more helpful and frame this well, let’s take it as we we let’s remove it from, from Earth. And from our context,
Pronch: Sure.
Adam: let’s say
Pronch: Sure.
Adam: we travel
Pronch: I’m good with that.
Adam: to another we we load up on the spaceship. Elon Musk has finally figured out how to, you know, make a successful spaceship. And we go and travel across the stars and then we meet some kind of alien life form that has particular, you know, spiritual or religious view of of divinity. And they’re worshiping, you know, the star next to their planet. So we meet them. And my question would be, what would be the goal of bringing what what we’ve learned and again, I’m sure you’d agree with this, what we’ve learned at this stage of scientific discovery on Earth, knowing
Pronch: Mm
Adam: that, of
Pronch: hmm.
Adam: course
Pronch: Yeah.
Adam: will
Pronch: Yeah.
Adam: ever more and more
Pronch: Absolutely.
Adam: at this stage of scientific discovery, what would be the goal of of. Not not only bringing, hey, here’s what we’ve learned, but intentionally trying to poke holes in what they’ve they’ve got as their worldview and perspective. So and I mean, that’s
Pronch: Yeah.
Adam: not as accusatory. I mean, actually. So what what would be our goals there? What would we want to get out of that?
Pronch: And I and I think I think I’ve got what makes sense to me is prosperity. If I let let’s pretend again where we’re coming from, from our spaceship, where we’re there. Before we before we land on the planet. Before we land on the planet. Let’s say we’re observing. And there’s two. Two groups of this species that we’ve seen. And these two groups are doing things very differently. So. So without actually interfering, we just see. One group has learned to rub sticks together to create fire. And another group does some sort of dance, hoping for a lightning strike to hit their pile of wood. And sometimes the lightning strike hits the pile of wood and they have fire. And their lightning dance clearly worked because they have fire. But the other group rub their sticks together and they had fire when they wanted it earlier. Would it be wrong for that other group of the same species without it, without and without us coming in from above and be like, Hey, this is the right way to do it? Would it not be right for that other group to come over and say, guys, guys like that, that little dance that you’re doing there? It’s it’s actually not like you’re just getting lucky. Here’s how you make fire. You rub your sticks together and and they’re giving the knowledge. So, like, bringing it down, taking taking it all all out of it. This is the the science behind it. We know that this is going to create heat and that creates the spark and that creates the fire. So then if we if we we we are kind of that other that other group is like, hey, let me let us show you how to prosper more. Let us show you how to make your heat. And obviously, that’s that’s in the in the in the idea of fire. But that expands out to all scientific discovery and all scientific understanding is if we don’t know this thing, you can’t know the next thing. And absolutely. Like what I said in the last one, there you go. Science peer peer review by La la la. And you had suggested that we shouldn’t deify the scientific process and it’s not infallible. And I completely agree. And that’s what I love about the scientific process
Adam: And
Pronch: is
Adam: of course,
Pronch: it isn’t
Adam: the scientific
Pronch: infallible.
Adam: process would agree with that because it
Pronch: Yeah.
Adam: operates
Pronch: Yeah,
Adam: on
Pronch: it’s
Adam: on
Pronch: it’s
Adam: being
Pronch: a part
Adam: on
Pronch: of
Adam: evolving.
Pronch: the scientific process.
Adam: Yeah.
Pronch: Yeah. So, so like I like that you cannot get to the next step in your scientific understanding, your understanding of the way the world works until you understand the first step. So, so hoping that a lightning strike is going to give you fire versus sticks being rubbed together to actually create the fire. That’s kind of in my like that’s the basic, basic, basic the first thing we could do to try to help other people. And if that happens to count, like interfere with their belief system of the lightning God creates the fire being, then it’s like, well, yeah, there is like as far as we know, there is no lightning God and there is no fire. Being fire isn’t alive. This is it’s heat. It’s it’s a reactions, chemical reaction. So like that, that’s how I kind of see it there. If I break it down to the base, base, base level, not thinking about yeah. Like saying your your belief in your God is wrong. It’s this is the way the world works. What do you think of that?
Adam: Yeah. I think that I think that what you’ve hit on is is a really well articulated thing that has that is rooted in really, really beautiful, good intentions. And I think
Pronch: Sure.
Adam: the problem is that that that posture that we bring, where we’re immediately where we’re we’re the first thing we’re already thinking about is how can we help? And again, as someone else and again, the seed of that comes from a good place of like, will we want to help someone else? The posture of how can how can someone else benefit from what I have is what has been used in the colonial project to really, really destructive results.
Pronch: Mr..
Adam: Because what it gets twisted into is, is a complete unawareness of relationship, of reciprocity and and it becomes a vehicle for, for kind of a slippery slope where more and more things become a posture of we have the right answers and you and you will then you will benefit from it. And so what I think is that it’s a really good intention. But when we start with when we start with, hey, we have the keys to prosperity before we actually start forming reciprocal relationships that are rooted in humility and, and servant hood. And this is where later I’ll go back to, to Jesus, who I take tradition that models humility and servant leadership and how we and how we approach, you know, leadership or or what some people might have formally called outreach. And I think the key there is it’s it skips the step of it skips the step of relationship. And so
Pronch: Okay.
Adam: a key theological piece for me is that is that in the grounding of the universe, that the divine you can call it God or the divine or, you know, the engine of being, whatever you want to call it doesn’t really matter to me is has an intrinsic characteristic of relationship. And I won’t go into it more. But in Christian thinking, that’s part of what there’s a significance to that the God of the Trinity. So God in three persons is that God literally is in relationship with themself in these three parts in Christian traditions. So relationship is incredibly key as a foundational piece. And what we’ve also started to learn about correcting the ways that Western thinking again has harmed when it thinks it’s helping is you take you’re kind of painting a picture of what we know in history was you know the the the shape of missions and so missions was and it specifically happened a lot in Christian contexts, but missions was basically what you suggested, where people found that they had something really good that they thought would help people prosper in this case, in a very, very awful and bloody history of Christian the Christian traditions,
Pronch: Yeah.
Adam: they thought
Pronch: Huh?
Adam: they had the keys to understanding who God was and therefore how we should go about in the world. And I feel pretty confident that most of those people were not setting out to cause destruction and harm and bloodshed. But
Pronch: Sure.
Adam: the seed of it was, we have something that will help you prosper. We know we believe we know who God is and we believe we know how we should live in the world based on that. And so a lot of people with good intentions thinking this will bring a lot of prosperity and help brought that. But because that understanding a was limited and we’ve already both admitted science is is limited by what we know today and will continue to grow and evolve. And so that’s why I think that science is in that scientific postures of wanting to bring prosperity aren’t immune to this is the the inability to first go hey, what, what do what can we learn about each other? To first go, Hey, what is it that this group on this alien planet has to offer us before we even, especially if we’re going to their home? And in this century, that’s what we’ve done. If we go
Pronch: Yeah.
Adam: to bring something, rather than to first come as guests to first experience the hospitality and the invitation of those who we are encountering as as as the position of us as guests. I think we we get off track if we don’t take that position first. And if we start with relationship and if we start with understanding what it is that that a local and what this local alien community has to bring to the table. If we miss that, I think we’re going to end up sort of repeating the same mistake. So. So asset based development is a huge shift in the thinking of charitable organizations, Christian and non-Christian. And it’s it started to to be one small step in a course correction of what? Charitable models? Again, charity international charities are essentially the same seed of what you’re talking about. Like we have something good that we can offer someone else. But we found out that that that just that thinking as the starting point of, hey, we’re from one place and we can go bring prosperity to another place has typically led to more harm than it has. Good. And and so
Pronch: Okay.
Adam: that’s why I think there’s a key step there. It’s not that we don’t want to share understandings or learnings or that that wanting prosperity for everyone is a bad thing. It’s it’s the posture of what we start with is really key.
Pronch: Sure. And okay, so I get that. And I, I fear that that position that you’ve that that you’ve laid out there is the pendulum swinging too far to the other side. Pendulums do need to swing
Adam: So.
Pronch: to the other side to correct for the imbalance on the first swing. But you don’t want it to swing too far. And what you’ve described there makes sense. And I, I don’t disagree that developing a relationship is the right thing to do in all situations. You know, you that that I only think can make prosperity better I can think that only can make all life better is if we’re more connected, more integrated as a society and more integrated with people. And we see each other as beings, whether we’re talking about these aliens that we discover another the life form, or we’re talking about people in another country seeing each other as equals, seeing each other as beings, and having benefits to give to each other. I agree completely with that. But I think that when you have things that are like the Crusades and the missions and the descent of that, those were definitely I think that you’re right. For the most part, people were well-intentioned. And I don’t disagree with you that people were well-intentioned in a lot
Adam: And I
Pronch: of
Adam: want
Pronch: those
Adam: to clarify.
Pronch: situations.
Adam: I think
Pronch: But.
Adam: everyday people I’m not I actually don’t give as much credit to those who are designing an architecture and the architects of those
Pronch: Sure.
Adam: things being good
Pronch: Sure.
Adam: intention but but
Pronch: The
Adam: that
Pronch: government’s.
Adam: among them they required more that most people were getting attention because they required a critical mass of people to go along with this that
Pronch: Yes.
Adam: were at least thought, oh yeah, this is probably in the end a good thing for some reason, so that they didn’t have necessarily malicious intent, but that as Martin Luther King talks about in the civil rights movement, that, for instance, like white moderates, he believed at some points were greater impediments to the cause of civil rights than than outright malicious actors. And so we have to be very aware of how good again, good intentions can can cause harm and how folks who are who are sort of moderate in their thinking can often be be curtailed, be kind of persuaded into a machine that can do a lot of harm.
Pronch: Yeah. And again, so, so like, like I agree with that. And that’s a great, great point there. And I have heard that that Martin Luther King description you just give there and that that I’m with you there. I’m a whole 1% with you. But I want to I want to bring up the idea that there are there’s a major difference between this is what you should believe and this is what you should kneel down to and point your body in the direction of as you hold your hands in this specific way versus this will sanitize your food. This will help your crops to grow more. Dancing around this field is not going to cause it to rain. You need an irrigation system like and I and I understand that that that rings of the colonial project I don’t disagree with you there that that does ring it but it’s also true that if if you know you have a group of people a this be beings on another planet that are drinking from a toxic lake. You need to give them this water filter so that they stop getting sick from their water. Otherwise, you you holding that back? You holding that that that that water filter and saying, well, we’re not ready to give it to them because we don’t quite have a relationship with them yet is more detrimental to their prosperity. And waiting until you have a good, solid relationship and you understand each other’s positions and why they do what they do. Meanwhile, many people have died because they didn’t have the water filter or they couldn’t grow enough food. Even though you had the answers all along. Like, I understand the balance here of you don’t want to destroy the culture and you don’t want to repeat the the history that was so terrible. But you also don’t want to hold back life saving, life, prosperity, things,
Adam: So.
Pronch: right? Like, am I wrong here? Do I have the wrong idea? Is this the wrong way to think of interacting with other people, other other beings?
Adam: Yes. If we’re going to take and this is kind of the example that comes up a lot. So yeah, if we take like medical advancements and we should also again just like be really clear, neither of us are medical professionals or
Pronch: Nope.
Adam: historians. But yeah, just to take that example as as a layperson’s example, I think that the key here is that there’s a difference between I no way would I suggest that we that we are intentionally, you know, hold back something that could be, you know, a health benefit. But there’s a difference between, you know, say we land on this culture. And as we’re learning about each other and again, in forming the relationship we can offer, hey, here’s something that we’ve we’ve learned. You know, maybe we we encountered, you know, this, you know, toxic lake on our planet. And here’s what we do. There’s a difference between offering that and and kind of the ah, the humility to, to offer it and, and allow the, the host community, the host community of aliens to, to decide for themselves what they will do for that and
Pronch: Oh,
Adam: and.
Pronch: sure. I’m not going to force them to use the filter. I’m going
Adam: Right.
Pronch: to say this is
Adam: But
Pronch: how the filter
Adam: so.
Pronch: works.
Adam: So I guess then that’s right. But then so then I guess that’s my next question is then so so say you offer it so say you present it, you’re like, oh yeah, we, we drink this and it helps us in our toxic lake not get sick. So say that they
Pronch: I.
Adam: don’t take it and then they just as you watch, you know, they are continuing to not engage with this piece, this piece of technology, medical, medical, you
Pronch: Mm
Adam: know,
Pronch: hmm.
Adam: device that you brought them. So what do you what do you do that because this is where the rubber starts to hit the road where, you know, in the colonial project, it’s not like everybody just jumped on to become, you know, Christians right away. But eventually we start to get into trouble where if you if you see people are still struggling and drinking from this toxic lake, how long before somebody, again with good intentions starts to say, no, we’re we are actually we are actually going off. We’re going to force and mandate that that you do this on a again on a host planet that’s not yours. Because that that’s
Pronch: Yeah,
Adam: typically what has happened in the Colonial Project is even though
Pronch: sure.
Adam: we’re guests, we have eventually taken the power to say, even if it’s with good intention, no, you have to start doing this. And that’s where then it becomes colonization.
Pronch: And I would say I would say my instinct there would be does the whole population know or are powerful forces deciding, well, we’re not going to let our people know about this thing. That would probably be by my my line. And I again, I’m not going to put the filter in front of their mouth and force them to drink front. Obviously, they have their own rights to make their own decisions because they’re sentient. But if, you know, we met with the leaders of this alien planet and we said, hey, hey, here’s this thing. And they decided not to communicate that and not to let their people know, then that’s corruption. That’s detrimental. They don’t. And I would probably insist that interfering on communication is the right way to go so that the people, the the the beings, the aliens could make their decision if we were going to expand this thought experiment out But yeah, you can’t force them. And that’s the colonial project. I agree that as soon as you’re as soon as you’re forcing them to take the actions that you wish, as opposed to providing them with the information. I’ll agree with you there that that’s where you cross that line. It’s if. Yeah. That that that would be where I’d say the line is. Do you agree with that? That communicating here is the thing. Because if you agree with that, that I’d love to move to the next level. But if you still think that even even that would be going too far.
Adam: Yeah. I think you’ve already crossed. And if you if
Pronch: Really?
Adam: you’re interfering with the way that this culture is set up and and again, I’m not. Not necessarily like we’re again, we’re we’re putting our context here where we’re guests on this planet
Pronch: Yeah.
Adam: and they have a
Pronch: Yeah.
Adam: they have and again they say they have some kind of leadership structure. And we
Pronch: Sure.
Adam: say no like this. If we start to interfere in that leadership structure, that is absolutely a step towards colonization even. And I and I agree.
Pronch: Hmm.
Adam: I hear your I hear your sighs, because I, I think the hard thing about this is it is true. Like, you can see this happening and go, there’s like this is this is a tragedy. If I see someone that I know, I could have helped. But the the consent of of a person is is critical, which I’m sure we both agree. But the consent
Pronch: Mm hmm.
Adam: of of a community as well is critical. And so whenever we start because and I’ll say the thing that started to betray you there is as soon as we start to say we would interfere, that that’s exactly that. That’s exactly where, again, things start to get off track is we have to understand when we come anywhere. And again, this is we’re going to
Pronch: Yeah.
Adam: talk about just human beings here on this on this planet,
Pronch: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Adam: this distant planet. Zarb Gah. Or whatever it’s called. If human beings from Earth come to glare, and for even the best of intentions, we start interfering without the consent of the community. And again, I’m not saying that if like 5 million XB guardians came to us and said, Hey, we would like support because we have a you know, we have a corrupt leadership system and we need help and we want access to this toxic like, you know, detoxify our that’s different than, again, us from our position looking at it as guests and going, you know, I think that we have a I think that this we’re even setting up our standards of what corruption and leadership where we’re imposing that on to on to another culture that we actually don’t know what their what
Pronch: Okay.
Adam: their standards
Pronch: So
Adam: are.
Pronch: so then we we come, we talk to the leaders of the guardians and the they decide not to do anything. Somehow it and they say, no, we don’t want this thing. We actively are deciding and telling you we do not want this thing. So that has been communicated to us. And we go, All right, well, we tried. Then it gets leaked and we hear from 5 million non leaders of the group and they say we want this thing and our leaders have said No, what do we do? There’s the leaders of the tribe which are elected or put in power by the 5 million. They’ve said no, but the other people said yes. Like that’s assuming that it leaked
Adam: It.
Pronch: and it got to them and they were able to get the information. Would would we be allowed to help them then or. No, because the leader said no.
Adam: If if if an individual comes to you or a family comes to you and says, we need help. Absolutely. Like I think it is absolutely. For me, like a key aspect of what it means to follow Jesus is when someone comes to you and says, we need help, we figure out how we can help that person or that family
Pronch: But
Adam: or that community. So if they’re coming.
Pronch: but the culture the the but the their leaders said
Adam: Yeah.
Pronch: no. So by helping them, we are interfering now with their culture because their leaders said no.
Adam: No, I so I think it’s so I think the difference becomes like if they as again, this and this is where, you know, it’s hard to do with hypothetical scenarios. But
Pronch: Of
Adam: say on
Pronch: course.
Adam: Zarb Glaube, they’ve given us consent to set up a little like some kind of little city. And then those Libyans come to our city and then say, Yeah, we want this thing and we need help. Then I think that it’s if we see that there’s people who specifically are asking for help and they’re coming to a place that as guests, we’ve been permitted to to dwell and to have some some level of some level of autonomy within with the walls of our little or ziglar being planet city. Yeah. I don’t think that there’s I think that that at that point, again, we’re still in the posture of guests and of support and of and of taking the lead of the individuals or in this case, maybe families or, you know, Ziglar being city dwellers who are coming to us and saying, this is what we this is what we could use to help us. So, again, the key here is if they come to the to the human beings, the Earthling city, then, and say, we want this help, I think it’s fine at that point. I think it’s it’s it’s at that point it’s okay to support because we are we are at this point. We’re in relationship. We’re doing things at the as as supports and as guests and not as interfering with the actual, you know, Ziglar being overall structure. So the key
Pronch: Yeah,
Adam: is
Pronch: but.
Adam: as as guests, are we operating as as guests and not as folks who are trying to become the new host body?
Pronch: Sure. Now, you you changed the scenario. And I think that in that scenario, 100% agree, yeah, somebody comes to you where you are and where you’re allowed to be. Yeah. But what I’m saying is we communicate from above, from, from the, from the orbit. We communicate with the leaders of the zero globes and they’ve said no and. Okay, sounds good. While we’re just going to go check out that asteroid over there and then somehow that leaks and we hear from a random citizen of the Zimbabweans through some sort of subspace transmission that, hey, we actually do want that thing. Even though the leader said no, are we allowed to quote unquote, interfere in that way because the information leaked, somebody’s heard about it, but the leaders have still said it. We come back and the leader say, what are you doing here? Well well, we heard from Joe and they’re like, what? Joe doesn’t speak for us. We speak for us. Are we in trouble? Have we crossed the line at that point?
Adam: Yeah. It’s it’s and this is the thing. It’s it’s it’s hard to say because, again, the Colonial Project is, is a program of of taking land and culture and and wealth. And so the key here is that one of the things to to help us move away from that or decolonize is to to move away from programmatic structures and be able to, again, be in relationship. And it naturally makes it harder and messier. And it’s a case by case basis. But I will
Pronch: Of
Adam: say
Pronch: course.
Adam: I will say I think that there’s two things that I take away from from this. And one is, I think providing amnesty to people who are struggling or suffering is a good thing. So if there’s some way on our way as we’re visiting the asteroid
Pronch: But.
Adam: to offer amnesty and space on our on our turf, on in our spaceship, or if the asteroid has become, you know, earthling, asteroid or whatever, to offer amnesty and space to those who want it and who are struggling or who are suffering is absolutely, I think, a righteous thing
Pronch: But.
Adam: to be
Pronch: But
Adam: able
Pronch: not
Adam: to do.
Pronch: in their space.
Adam: But but their space is their it’s not our space to it’s not our space if we’re not the host. And so we
Pronch: Okay.
Adam: also the key the second key thing is what makes this difficult is it is good intentions of wanting to help people can really, really, really quickly morph into savior complexes and savior
Pronch: Sure.
Adam: complexes are where we where where the wheels fall off the train. And so that’s that’s a piece that I think is actually really critical about the Christian stories that removes human beings as as as savior, not because we don’t have something to offer, contribute or help or not that we couldn’t have a something to help the Zimbabweans. But because it’s really, really challenging not to develop a savior complex that leads to eventually like the road, the path that I think that you’ve kind of painted will eventually lead to just the takeover of of the Earthlings. And the reason I think that is because that’s exactly what happened every time, you know, colonizers interfered in leadership or culture and like what we call Canada now is the prime example of that. And even the government tried to establish, oh, well, we’ll still have leaders of indigenous communities, but it wasn’t in the structure or the format that that many tribes actually consented to or were used to, and they became essentially like puppet regimes. So I think that it’s I think that amnesty is is an okay and good and righteous thing. But when we are guests on someone else’s planet or guests on someone else’s land, we are guests and and we have limits and boundaries to what we can rightly do, even if that means that there’s something that we see happening that we don’t like. We’re still guests.
Pronch: Okay. So I. I understand. I agree for the most part. And I want to I want to specify that I’m with you on on on almost everything. And I need to I need to pass my thoughts, I think, and figure out what I don’t what still is bothering my brain here. But to bring it back to the to the to take take it away from something is as as basic, as medical as as life saving, something where it’s like, oh, that’s a that’s a more of a finicky line, something like the idea of a sun God or a star God or whatever, and letting, letting a culture know the physical facts of something that they may not have thought to look for. What would be wrong with? I guess. I mean, I can I guess I can see what you’re saying here is like, oh, it could tear the culture apart. They could they could go to war over it and la, la, la. But when it’s what I’m trying at, what I’m trying to have, what I’m having a hard time with here is the idea of of saying, hey, you’re on a big rock hurtling around a giant pile of plasma and there is no ra. There is no God of the sun. Why is that wrong? And I feel like it’s the same answer of what you’ve already given. Am I. Am I wrong there that it’s still. That’s the colonial project right there.
Adam: Yeah. I just think that when it comes to actually if we’re just talking about like, well, we, we have a, we have an understanding of something and you have a different understanding of something If the if the Zimbabweans, you know, worship the star next to them like Xb Glass seven or whatever we want to call it, I’m
Pronch: Sure.
Adam: going to call it. I mean, like, look at what was on my desk. If they worship coffee cups seven, which is the star that’s next to them and, and, and that’s their system of belief. And, and they’re not it’s not harming anyone. I don’t know why we I don’t know what the goal is at that point
Pronch: The goal
Adam: beyond.
Pronch: is to help them to to to progress. Like we we could not have gotten to the point where we are now. We couldn’t be launching rockets up into space and off to Mars and and understanding the way the universe works in the expansion of the universe and and all that. We couldn’t do that if we still thought that the earth revolved around the sun and the sun was pulled across. Sorry, the sun revolved around the earth because a Greek God was pulling it behind his chariot. Like if we still believed that, we would not be where we are.
Adam: Yeah, but that’s a really reductionist understanding of where we’re at because we’ve also heated the planet’s temperature and that you can’t separate those two things that we’ve
Pronch: Sure.
Adam: we’ve actually created an. Sure. Okay. So the Colonial Project brought with it understandings of space and and the the earth that are helpful. And so, again, I think I talked about last episode. There’s a process
Pronch: Just.
Adam: of that in the Bible or talks about the wheat and the tares, which is it’s really hard to separate the wheat as the good stuff. The tares are the bad stuff. And it’s a really
Pronch: Okay?
Adam: delicate
Pronch: Yeah.
Adam: and hard
Pronch: Yeah.
Adam: process to separate those things. But the fact is that they often grow together. So so medical advancements that have been brought across the world, I think are absolutely a good thing. But we also can’t be so reductionist in thinking that that we also haven’t caused destruction because we sure there are we’ve been able to launch things into space, although I would argue I don’t know that we’ve that that’s that spaceships themselves have helped us that much yet, but the medical advancements certainly have. But with it, you know, we’ve also and I when I say we, I say those of European descent and our ancestors and and those of us who are complicit in the colonial project have heated the plants temperature to a point where we’re doing irreparable damage to the actual planet that we’re on. And
Pronch: Yeah.
Adam: millions and millions and millions of people have been have been killed alongside that this project, too. So I don’t think you can actually just say, well, if we bring this stuff, it will it will result in prosperity, because arguably we have more wealth inequality than at any time over the last 400 years. And our planet is more screwed up on a on a on a climate
Pronch: And.
Adam: and biological level than it was before all this started, when there was sustainability for our resources that were stewarded by indigenous communities here in what we now call Canada. So I don’t think it is actually fair to say that we that this just that this just immediately brings prosperity. I think it’s much more complicated than that. And I think in the end, I think it’s it’s it’s done probably more damage than even the medical advancements that we’ve brought have been able to to help. So I just I just don’t think it’s as simple as to say when we do this, it brings prosperity.
Pronch: Okay. I definitely see that. I definitely see what you’re saying there that we have we’ve made some some understanding advancements, but we’ve also messed things up for ourselves. I definitely
Adam: Yeah. Like just one
Pronch: have.
Adam: quick example. Like with our, like the, the Western approach to agriculture and terraforming we look at as saying like, oh, there’s a better way to do that, but that that’s not necessarily true. And the ability to just create vast amounts of farmland has actually not. Has actually not helped create a sustainable pace for our resources or the ability to bring technology and say, hey, we can log really fast has actually not helped to create sustainable resources. So I just also think that when we’re coming in, even even the ways that we think, oh, this, this is this is prosperity, I think we have to take that with a grain, a grain grain of salt, of what we deem as prosperity is still coming from our particular subjective lens, and we often apply an abject objectivity to it that is not accurate.
Pronch: Very, very, very interesting points. I mean, I haven’t haven’t thought of things from this perspective before, and I appreciate that, like this is definitely helping me to, to, to see because I. Yeah. But I also think that the, the fact that we are able to feed more people more easily and ah, we’re able to focus our, our, our, our potential, you know a thousand years ago, 99. Now that’s not accurate a lot some large percentage when to use a specific number, a large percentage of our energy was spent collecting calories. And now that it’s not. Yes, I don’t disagree with you. Our planet is suffering from global warming. And that you know, there’s there’s a lot of other problems. But the fact that we do not need to spend such a large percentage of our energy collecting more energy calories, food means that we can explore our potential as sentient beings and.
Adam: Not everybody, though. We
Pronch: Yes.
Adam: have more we have more hunger across the world than probably we had a thousand years ago. And when people when one in ten people in it, let’s take a peek of, you know, our the colonial project and prosperity and technology and and quote unquote, like like colonial civilization In Toronto
Pronch: Mm hmm.
Adam: right now, Canada, one in ten people are accessing a food bank. So I
Pronch: Yes.
Adam: so I actually I don’t think we actually are feeding more people we like. We in theory, we could be. But again, we actually didn’t. We it’s not a bad thing to create a system where everybody can access food down the street so that they can do other things. But what came along with that system was the ability for, you know, the Western family to make billions of dollars and charge $10 for a brick of cheese. So I again, I the ability to say that more people are being fed right now I don’t think is is is accurate. And when we think about what I talk about this on my other podcast that the colonial approach to housing and in Canada a speculative housing market as opposed to the approach to housing that indigenous peoples had for thousands of years. We have far, far more people who are dying cold on the streets than than there were, you know, 500 years ago. And I recognize there weren’t necessarily streets at that point. But I actually think when we start to look at the ways that that we do things, it appears at first that we have made things better and easier. But really, that’s actually only true of of privilege, folks. And we have much more home hunger and homelessness across the world than we did before these quote unquote, prosperity vehicles began running their engines.
Pronch: So yes, I will agree that capitalism has some very major problems and that the motivations of profit are definitely a problem for prosperity. I’m with you there. With you there. Socialism is. And please, everybody, socialism and cap and communism are very different things. Don’t think when I say socialism, I’m referring to communism. Socialism is definitely a more beneficial system than straight up capitalism that we have now. But in the let’s let’s pretend, just for the sake of a thought experiment, let’s pretend here that we were able to wave a wand, snap our fingers, whatever, and income inequality went away and people were being fed. People were able to, you know, we got our Star Trek utopian future. People don’t work for the betterment of themselves. They work for the betterment of humanity, blah, blah, blah. That whole future and Star Trek. Is it not better to have agriculture and the ability to make mass amounts of food for the masses so that humans can study their own potential? Because yet you’re right. Right now, you’re absolutely right. I’m not disagreeing with you. But is that not a good end goal?
Adam: It sounds a lot like a uniform approach, which I think always collapses. And I think that what you and the principles of what you’re proposing. 1/2. I’m going to cough something to mute myself. So I think that diversity is always is always a stronger approach and a healthier and a more beautiful approach than than uniformity. And so I think that what you’re approaching in principle or what you’re proposing in principle of, you know, everyone having everyone having a warm place to sleep and everyone having enough food to eat is absolutely good. But I think that the last 500 years in the West, and specifically in what we now call North America, have shown us that then the approach to just well, we’ll just bring one set of ideals and understanding or one programmatic approach to how we do housing and how we do agriculture. It led us to exactly where we are now, where there’s massive wealth inequality. We’ve we’ve completely screwed up the planet. And so I think that, again, when we come from a colonial lens, we tend to think there’s one right way of doing things. And then we kind of tend to think it’s just the way that we know about. And and I think that that approach is exactly what you would critique in in fundamentalist religious understandings. Right. The
Pronch: Yup.
Adam: ability
Pronch: Yup.
Adam: to just say, like, well, the way we’ve done it is just that, you know, the best way. And obviously, that’s the also the way it’s supposed to be in the way that leads to prosperity. But I think that and I’ll bring it back to to the divine that, you know, that I referred to as God. I think God creates in diversity. I think God loves diversity. And I think we when we actually look at the creative world around us, diversity is what actually builds strong ecosystems. So if you take wolves out of Algonquin Park like they did in the first half of the 20th century, the ecosystem starts to get completely screwed up. There’s too many deer, and then they’re eating too many of the plants, and then the plant system get screwed up and they reintroduce wolves and make the ecosystem more diverse again and things got better. So the colonial approach is there is a uniform way to do things, and it is also typically driven by those who have the power to decide what those things are and the the challenge of living into harmony with the diversity of creation and the diversity of culture and belief and people. I will bet every day of the week that that will lead to a healthier, more prosperous future. And the ability to to do that is not dependent on rolling out one approach or one one system, but actually in the hard work of being in a neighborly relationship with one another, being in servant leadership, which is to say how can I support you rather than bring what I think I should bring? And in in humility, that is the radical in its in its posture of of of wanting the flourishing of your neighbor without co-opting the the consent of your neighbor. So diversity and relationship are really, really hard, but I think that they are building blocks of what leads to true prosperity.
Pronch: You know, it’s what’s really funny, what I’m just realizing here, listening to you speak and listening to what you’re saying is I, I agree with absolutely everything you’re saying. And at the I think even at a fundamental level, it’s just the the idea that we can’t like that diverse diversity. Good. Yes. Yes, different ideas. Good. Yes, right there. But the fact that there isn’t a better way working together. Putting aside our diversity to make something better together that is uniform, that works for everyone. And like that’s that’s where I’m having a hard time here with like, I’m not disagreeing with you because everything
Adam: Say that
Pronch: you’re
Adam: last
Pronch: saying
Adam: part again.
Pronch: is
Adam: I want to make sure I say that last part again
Pronch: right.
Adam: or the sticking
Pronch: I
Adam: point
Pronch: think
Adam: is.
Pronch: I think I think what I said is the idea that we can’t have our diversity put aside to work on something that benefits us both so we both
Adam: Right.
Pronch: prosper more.
Adam: So I don’t think you have to put diversity aside for that, actually. And I think that there’s plenty of examples where diversity is is maintained. And again, like in a healthy take any community in a and I’ll take religious communities because I that’s where I spent a lot of my time unhealthy religious communities are based on we have to believe this and even even if they’re I’ll take a Christian religious community you know obviously like people coming to that would probably have some kind of agreement around, you know, God or Jesus or something like that. If they’ve come together in the shape of an actual fabric of community but unhealthy communities, typically from the top down, deliver here’s here’s everything that you’re actually supposed to believe about the way God works. And maybe it’s like the way the Bible works and the way that we’re supposed to live and the rules you’re supposed to do And here’s who you’re supposed to be allowed to have sex with and here’s you you’re not be allowed to have sex with. And here’s how you’re supposed to talk to people. And so unhealthy communities from the top down, deliver a uniform approach to this is how you have to understand it, and then they implement that. But healthy religious communities and healthy Christian communities take the the awareness and the truth that even if everybody comes to a, you know, a Christian church and a specific Christian church and goes, yeah, we all believe in God. And actually even that there’s a lot of people who don’t and are still welcome to be part of the community in healthy communities. But say they all say, yeah, we believe in God. What they actually the implications and how and all the nuances of what that means are going to be diverse and a healthy community actually wants those things to be voiced, those things to be to be spoken. And they do the hard work of then finding how with that diversity, do we still work together for common purpose? And I think it’s absolutely possible to work for common purpose. If a religious community has vastly different beliefs about what happens after you die, that doesn’t that doesn’t preclude them from going, hey, we’re going to start a program to make sure our neighbors who are struggling with grocery bills have a free meal. So I don’t think you actually have to set diversity aside to do common work together and to do good work and any like great, you know take look at the civil rights movement there were vastly different under there are vastly different perspectives, both theological and also civic from the leaders that came alongside Martin Luther King. But they were actually still able to achieve massive impact on society. But they didn’t do that by erasing the nuances or the diversity within the people and the groups that they were serving. They did the harder work to still find. How could that diversity lead to strong common purpose? So I think that you don’t have to put diversity aside to make common purpose for prosperity or for what I like to say, because prosperity has been co-opted a lot into prosperity. Gospels are in the colonial project. I like to use the word flourishing, but I think prosperity absolutely works too. You don’t have to set diversity aside for flourishing or prosperity, but in fact it leads to healthier flourishing and healthier prosperity. When you do the hard work of of of honoring diversity, you get better results.
Pronch: Yeah. Until you’re in a direct clash, until you’re in a direct confrontation with this. This way of doing something is directly contradictory to this way of doing something. And I believe it’s this way. And you believe it’s that way. And they cannot coexist. For example, you can’t have the sun God and send a satellite up to observe the sun. Right. Like that
Adam: Well,
Pronch: one
Adam: you can if you
Pronch: is
Adam: just have
Pronch: an
Adam: two
Pronch: action.
Adam: distinct communities that are that are doing their own thing.
Pronch: Sure.
Adam: Like like the Zimbabweans don’t have to participate in setting the satellite up. But.
Pronch: But we’re interfering with their. God, I can’t believe you would do that. Why would you go near our God?
Adam: Well, they. Well, then, like, I mean, if we’re going back to Ziegler for a second. Yeah, we probably like if
Pronch: Yeah.
Adam: we’re guests, we shouldn’t be doing things like sending the satellite into their atmosphere. That’s not our that’s not our place to do it for guests. But if we’re back on Earth and the Earthlings have
Pronch: Mm
Adam: agreed.
Pronch: hmm.
Adam: Yeah. We can set a satellite up. Sure, we can send a satellite up over. Over Earth. There’s nothing wrong with that. Again, it depends
Pronch: But
Adam: on if we’re
Pronch: not
Adam: the position
Pronch: all.
Adam: of
Pronch: But
Adam: guests
Pronch: no, no, but
Adam: or.
Pronch: let me let me back off there, because they’re not
Adam: Sure.
Pronch: all humans on earth agree that we should be sending satellites up into Earth because or sending it to those two to whatever. Like, not all humans will agree with that for whatever reasons. And so is it just democracy then?
Adam: I mean, democracy is certainly like democracy is certainly a helpful way that we have allowed or in in theory, to allow more voices and therefore more diversity in the process. We won’t get into a debate about what the perfect system of politics
Pronch: No.
Adam: is
Pronch: No.
Adam: here. But but again, I think what we’re coming back to here is, for me, the the position of am I if I’m a guest on someone in someone else’s home or someone else’s land or someone else’s planet, it’s not my place to to take the lead. And it’s not my place to go to a tree, to the home or the land, unless I unless I’ve been invited to in specific ways. It’s not my place to treat that as if it’s as if it’s mine. And and that is a lot of where, again, the roots of of that colonization come from, is is while this is ours and we get to take it. And
Pronch: So
Adam: if
Pronch: at
Adam: our guests.
Pronch: what point
Adam: We don’t.
Pronch: at what point do you get to cross that line? Like, if looking here on earth, you have democratic cultures and you have non-democratic cultures, you have a very authoritarian and you have, you know, governments that are hurting their own people within. But I see their own people. I mean, the people that they are supposedly governing. Should we not be stopping that? Should we not be like if.
Adam: Yeah.
Pronch: If
Adam: I
Pronch: there
Adam: mean, to
Pronch: was
Adam: say that’s too
Pronch: no.
Adam: big of a I mean, I’m not going to try to dodge that, but I’m going to say that’s too big
Pronch: Oh.
Adam: of a. In terms of like foreign foreign policy or isolationism like that, that that would be a whole other episode. And I don’t know that I would be like qualified to speak on that. But what I will say
Pronch: And
Adam: in.
Pronch: I don’t know that I am qualified to ask the right questions. I want to be honest.
Adam: What I
Pronch: There
Adam: what I will say is that
Pronch: any.
Adam: we again, we always when we are in relationships, we can always be working to offer our insights and opinions. And again, if their insights on, you know, the toxic deepwater fire for the Zarrab. Blake there’s no reason we can’t there’s absolutely no reason we can’t say, hey, we found we found a helpful way that we think is important. But in a relationship, there’s give and take. It’s it’s not clear. And in healthy relationship, it’s not clear always what the next steps are. In relationships, you have to work on it. You have to know each other. And again, in in mutually supportive, loving relationships, people don’t people don’t coerce or pull the power card and power dynamics are shared. So we’re also talking a little bit about power dynamics here. And I think, again,
Pronch: Yeah.
Adam: the key is that in a relationship where if we’re coming from Earth and we’re talking to Ziglar, that’s a different and we’re meeting in the middle, like in space, that’s a different dynamic and that that we have to understand and and work on on shared loving power dynamics than if we were on Zarrab Saab and we were on their home and we were guests and the same if they were that Ziglar came to Earth. And so understanding practices of hospitality are really key to my understanding of faith and of Jesus. Understanding that understanding when you’re a guest and understanding how you can, in humility, serve others without imposing others. These are messy things. There’s not a clear cut thing I can say to to
Pronch: Yeah.
Adam: give, like, here’s where it works and here’s where it doesn’t. But again, I think the key is that when when you’re in relationship and when you understand power dynamics, it will shift how we operate. And particularly when we’re talking about, you know, the Zimbabweans or people that have a different culture or belief system or leadership system. I will say. I will say. And until the cows come home, when we start in any way to to think that we have got the answers, if that’s coming from the the echo chamber of of us and not in relationship with Zork Libyans, which is why I think if 5 million came and said, hey, we need some help, I don’t think I think that’s becomes a different case. But,
Pronch: Sure.
Adam: but we are often in a position of of being a guest and we start to assume that we are actually owners. And and the ability and even the idea of being owner of ownership is a very like a western mode of thinking, a European mode of thinking and indigenous communities. And also folks in the East have completely different concepts of what that means. And so it affects how we actually interact. And and we are so often bringing in Christian thinking in the West and in and in Western different modalities of atheist thinking. We are often still applying a colonial lens to, to our approaches, even if we believe different things about the existence of God. And I think that I’m I think that the colonial approach does damage whether we’re Christian or whether we’re atheist or whether we’re we’re agnostic. And it is something that should be should be critiqued and attacked and dismantled as an as an understanding. And it will lead us to health healthier, a healthier world, healthier lives and more flourishing the more we dismantle that colonial understanding and the colonial practices and the colonial ways of thinking.
Pronch: Okay. So I’m going to I’m going to be honest here. I feel like I have personally learned a lot in this in this hour. I feel like
Adam: Well, me too. Like with this.
Pronch: the way
Adam: That’s what’s great
Pronch: the
Adam: about talking
Pronch: oh,
Adam: like.
Pronch: yeah,
Adam: And.
Pronch: the way the way that you’ve you’ve had me like think I’ve always known white male cis privilege is a thing and I know that I have it. And, and the way that I think, I try to think of myself as very, very open and and intimate, but like and I’m I am very much in agreement with pretty much everything you’ve said. And I can’t really poke holes in any of it because like, because I agree with it on, on such large levels. But I also have these nagging things in the back of my head about like what we can help
Adam: Reporter.
Pronch: and what you’re, you’re, you’re definitely getting in my head is the act of saying we can help is detrimental
Adam: Well,
Pronch: and
Adam: I
Pronch: and
Adam: don’t want to go that far, but I
Pronch: sure
Adam: think that
Pronch: sure.
Adam: helping
Pronch: And.
Adam: often hurts. And I think that too
Pronch: Mm hmm.
Adam: often what we
Pronch: Just.
Adam: what we think we’re helping, not always not
Pronch: Just.
Adam: and not that the the desire to want to help, I don’t think is is inherently bad. But in how it actually gets teased out in practice,
Pronch: Yes.
Adam: that’s where the rubber hits the road. And we know
Pronch: Yep.
Adam: that from, from charitable models in the West from from missions organizations of Christian church, people who thought they were helping did massive, destructive, deadly harm. And so it’s not the desire to help. I think that is bad, but it is it is just going in charging in saying we have the answers on how to help and here’s how we’re going to do it. That’s where things start to go down the wrong track. So I do want to just say,
Pronch: Yeah.
Adam: at least for my position, I’m
Pronch: Mm hmm.
Adam: not advocating that we don’t that for this isolationist view where we just cut ourselves off or we don’t want to help others, it’s how we do it. It’s
Pronch: Yep.
Adam: how we go about
Pronch: Yep.
Adam: it.
Pronch: And I and I, I agree. I 100% agree. I think that before this conversation, I think I agreed before this conversation. But I don’t think I understood at a higher at the right level. I think that you’ve you’ve helped me to think about how the help needs to be be brought and and the developing the relationship. Because I again, throughout the entire conversation, I’ve been sitting here going, yeah, yeah, well, yeah, but it’s, it’s, it’s having the forethought and thinking about it as you go and just coming in and, and tying it back to the idea of religion and kind of kind of the basis of this conversation, the basis of our of our difference in agreement here. It’s that that’s what this conversation is. This conversation
Adam: But.
Pronch: is us developing the relationship, us
Adam: That’s
Pronch: understanding
Adam: exactly right. Yeah.
Pronch: the difference between our
Adam: So.
Pronch: two positions. We are both straight white males aged 18 to 35. Well, I’m 35 now, so that number is going to change pretty soon. But so we’re both in that same category, but we have this difference and we’re trying to understand that difference. And that’s what I’m loving about this. And and it’s this this conversation, while it might not have been about religion specifically, it was about the idea of the conversation. And I really, really liked it. And I’m going to try to have this this conversation and that thought process in my mind as we go forward,
Adam: Yeah. And the same with me
Pronch: you
Adam: because
Pronch: know.
Adam: again the ways that you I don’t often you know, I again we talked about this off the podcast because I do this stuff as part of my work in terms of thinking about God, thinking about how we relate
Pronch: I.
Adam: thinking and particularly our organization is intentionally wanted to practice an anti press some lens. So you know, I think and I talk and I read about how we do this, you know, how we do this project of getting away from colonialism, of decolonizing, because whether as settlers, it’s our responsibility to reexamine that and heal from it, both for us and the Earth and the people that we’ve harmed. But there’s so much that you help me sharpen and go, Yeah, that is a that is a good question. And even some of the places here in this conversation, again, it’s a reciprocal thing. I gained so much from from hearing again that where you’re coming from. And so the more that we’re able to do that, you’re right. It is an example of rather than charging in and saying, this is how things will go, this is the hard work, and it does cost time and it does invest energy. And you’re right that sometimes and that will involve like that may involve we look back and go, if only we had gotten there sooner, you know, X, Y, Z could have been different. You know this, that too. Two of these Zimbabweans, if we’d gotten there two days before, wouldn’t have drank maybe this toxic water. But we’re we’re not saviors and we’re not actually to be in the position of saying of saying we we healed everything and we saved the world, but we do our best. And when we do it in relationship with others, reciprocal, loving relationships, I think long term it it does lead to good and healthy things. And on a on a spiritual level, I trust that even the things that we fail at in this life, I believe that God is is doing work to restore and heal beyond what we’re doing, too. So it’s also a humility, peace of knowing beyond the work that we do in your blurb or in a podcast conversation like this. I do do believe in and convicted in a hope that
Pronch: I
Adam: good
Pronch: mean.
Adam: things are happening and healing is happening beyond my life and sphere and efforts. So you have helped very much even in this conversation. Help me reexamine and sharpen, you know, how do we do things in a in a healthy way when we talk about, you know, the perspectives of faith and the perspectives of of the folks who who don’t have a faith tradition. So yeah. So thank
Pronch: Yeah.
Adam: you for that.
Pronch: Not a problem, man. Let’s let’s keep this conversation in the back of our minds as we move forward with our next episodes.
Adam: Absolutely. Absolutely. Can’t wait to talk about
Pronch: All
Adam: it.
Pronch: right. Bye bye. See ya.
