Ep. 8 – Exploring Adam’s Worldview

Pronch :
Hi I’m Pronch

Adam :
and I am Adam, and this is Sacred Skepticism, a podcast where we, two friends delve into the depths of spirituality and belief figuring out where we overlap where we share a ton of common ground and when we are far apart as well.

Pronch :
Each Episode unfolds as a unique journey through our evolving perspectives, and we get to see how each other sees the world

Adam :
And this conversation started and then built and built so we encourage you actually to start from the beginning of this season 1 as the episodes build on the conversation that unfolds as we go.

Pronch :
So Take a moment, sit back, relax and explore with us as we uncover the next layer of our shared exploration

Adam :
We love having these conversations, and what makes it even better is knowing that you’re following along with us, So, welcome to Sacred Skepticism

Pronch: All right. So, um, you know, peek behind the curtain here. We’re recording this episode immediately following the episode that that we just recorded about kind of my lens and how I look at the world, and. And now it’s my turn to kind of turn it around on on Adam and ask him about his lens and how he looks at the world, moves through the world and decides things and interacts with other people. So, you know, we kind of heard about me and where I’m coming from. THROW So Adam, you, where you coming from and how do you know what turn this exact same conversation we just

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: had but back on you.

Adam: Yeah. So the faith perspective is, is obviously that’s going to be, you know, for me and I wouldn’t say this is necessarily for everybody. In fact, it definitely isn’t for everybody who even, you know, ascribes to a faith tradition or the Christian tradition. Not every one of those people would say that it that it necessarily is the is provides the lens for how they look at the world. Or is that or is the core of of, you know, how they decide how they move and use their energies in the world. But but for me, I do I do try to make it the the core source of my life. And and so we talked about these kind of the way that it’s sort of fleshed out as we were talking with you. Are there these sort of three, three pieces or three, three questions, three categories, one of which is who are we both as individuals and as a species? Who are we? You know, what drives us? And then the second one is what’s going on? What what the heck is going on? What, what? What helps move us forward? What doesn’t help move us forward? What gets in our own way and where are we going? What’s what is the what is the future and what’s the what’s the best way to move towards the kind of future that we want? So who are we? What’s going on and where are we going to try to kind of I’m going to try to frame it a little bit back to those so it can kind of so we can compare and contrast where you and I have overlap and where and where we differ. So. When I think about that first thought about who we are. You talked about that. You had a good pushback of of not wanting to frame it, as I asked you. So you think that at our core, everyone is is at their core good. And you had

Pronch: Mm

Adam: a really

Pronch: hmm.

Adam: good push back that I actually think is is beautiful and helped kind of teach me that I might be kind of off on even assuming a framing of good and bad where you talked about I think what we want is that you do think that what we want at our root is prosperity is is, is if there if there’s a if there’s a baby crying on the floor and no one is around that we would that that on the whole most people would would would pick it up pick that baby up and comfort, take care of it, figure out what’s going on. And

Pronch: Yeah.

Adam: and I would definitely agree with that. And I think that I think that there is space in where I how I see the world in my lens for. For the use of that word. Good. But I like that. What I want to say is when I say that, I think at the root. The world is good and people are good. I want to take what you push back on and say good. Not necessarily a good. That is this binary of there are that there is yeah. That there’s a certain binary of there’s there’s good and there’s there’s bad in terms of one is one is better. One is worse. I think sometimes our concept of good can get wrapped up in sort of a, a colonial understanding of, of being right. And some of the worst examples of Christian faith in action is people who are convinced that they are right doing a lot of damage. So when I say I do think that when it comes to who we are, I think that we are good. I think that that word goodness when it comes from this these liberating Christian traditions that I have learned from and that really propel me in my walk in life, goodness is goodness is something that I think is imbued on us from how we’re created. And I think that there is deep, deep goodness in terms of the world that we live in, the universe that we live in, and that that you’re that I agree. And I find a lot of overlap that with you in what you in when you talk about what I say goodness I think it is it is very inextricably linked to flourish what I would I often say flourishing, but what I think is interchangeable with when you’re talking about the word prosperity. So I think that there is

Pronch: Yeah.

Adam: I think that there is this capacity for goodness in people that is that is at the root, the root of who we are and how we’re created, and that there is goodness in the world around us.

Pronch: Yeah.

Adam: So I think that I think that that that there is there’s a lot of overlap there. And I think that when we look at the this one of, you know, these early stories that the Christian tradition employs in Scripture, in this in Genesis, there’s this is this long poem that continually references this idea of of goodness being baked into and a key emphasized element of of the start of of all things. There is goodness and the start

Pronch: So

Adam: of people.

Pronch: can I just clarify there when you mean like

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: in Genesis, like like God created the light and it was good. Like, is that what you mean by that?

Adam: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Pronch: Okay.

Adam: Yeah. So in the poem that yeah. In the poem, this idea of things that are good is, is sort of this key grounding piece that is a refrain that comes in this poem over and over again. And it was good. It was good. So

Pronch: I.

Adam: I think that and that poem includes the kind of the this this this poetic telling of the start of of you know, that the story of humanity for the how the for how these ancient writers of of the Jewish faith told the story. And so who we are. I think that I think that goodness is is at the root. And this goodness is inextricably connected in a very similar way. What you’re talking about to that people have this capacity for flourishing, for prosperity, for for things that lead to life. I think that that is that is a key root element of who I am as an individual and who we are as people. And I think, again, similar to you, you identified, obviously, we do not live in a utopian society. Obviously, things are not perfect. So what’s the deal with that then? If we’re if we’re if we have so much capacity for prosperity, why aren’t why isn’t everyone prospering? And then on my side, if we’re so good, why are there so many horrible things that happen? So I think that that’s where a key piece of of the of who we are also involves this capacity for for real damage and real destruction. And in Christian tradition, we often use this word that was originally called Qatar, and I’m butchering the pronunciation of that, but we often refer to it in like Anglicized modern version as this this idea of sin, where there is there is a problem, there is a capacity in us as well that shares this tension and in some ways maybe even paradox with our capacity for goodness, I think in us as well as this capacity for for hate, for sin and for the ability for us to put. You talked about kind of in the front brain pieces to put in the foreground the desire for self, whether that’s from fear or anger or selfishness or judgment the desire to put self ahead of those around us. And then that leads to, you know, worsening things. So I think that who we are is we are we are these creations, these creatures with deep capacity for good, that it’s at our root. But in among that we also are we also have this capacity for for we have this capacity for for great harm that that that is done it through us and to us. And and I think that for me is where we kind of is where a lot of the story can, in my kind of tradition, can begin to take its shape on on who we are. Thoughts.

Pronch: Well, I was just actually about to I’m literally I’m opening up a notepad because I wanted to write down my thoughts and let you continue. But if you if you turn it into me, my question would be, you know, the idea of a creator of some sort creating us with all of this good. The potential for good.

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: But

Adam: And

Pronch: we

Adam: that’s

Pronch: also.

Adam: a good thing to clarify. Would that that would be part. I do I do believe that we have a creator. Yeah. And

Pronch: Hmm.

Adam: then so and that that’s then that’s an inextricable. Yes. Part of the story,

Pronch: Mm

Adam: too.

Pronch: hmm. So my question would be, why would you be created? Why would humanity be created? And sorry, I use the word you there. I meant like you being humans. Why would humans be created with this, this, this cata, this, this potential for sin as well? If you’re being made if you’re if you’re if you’re forming a thing, why

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: not form it? I mean, the word that’s come to my head, I don’t feel like it’s the right word is correctly. You know, like,

Adam: You know, know for sure. Yeah. No, I

Pronch: get

Adam: get.

Pronch: rid of this. I’m going to take this mistake out of here and put in this

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: only, only the good. So, like, why have that other side of it if you’re if there’s a creator involved?

Adam: Yeah. So I think that and that’s that’s the eternal that’s that’s a great important question that everybody should wrestle with. And more. More people of faith and more Christians should wrestle with that exact question. And again, not to try and boil it down, but I do think a key element here then is is freedom. Free will and consent, which I believe exist in in relationships. So I think that we we we’re not created as robots just to simply do the will of the creator without choice or without question. I believe we were created with power and freedom and agency because because of the root of what love is. And so that that the creator is who is the deepest, purest love that we we personify as creator. And that love does not seek control. Love gives freedom. And so the but that the catch with that is that so to have proper choice and proper love you have to have choice. And to have choice, it it is inescapable that that will lead to you have the choice to to without trying to make it too cliche here to do the right thing or not do the right thing

Pronch: Mm hmm.

Adam: to seek. You have the choice to to to seek the prosperity of of those around you or to choose to simply seek your own prosperity. So I think it comes down to the fact that love is is the key grounding force of the universe and that we are created with love. We are created with the capacity for love. But any good relationship, any bad let’s say this any bad relationship, a bad bastardization of what love is, would be those who, you know, seek control over the people that they love. That’s not that’s not real love. So that the love aspect being a key grounding piece of how this creative action works leads to the freedom. And the freedom leads to the capacity for sin is what would be would be a quick, quick, clumsy

Pronch: Mm hmm.

Adam: way of just starting to dig in there.

Pronch: So I mean, I’ve heard the I’ve heard the description of, you know, we weren’t created as robots and we’ve been given free will. I’ve heard that description before. And the question, the reversal on that that I’ve that I’ve heard as well and I’m just I want to put it back

Adam: Mm hmm.

Pronch: to you,

Adam: Yeah,

Pronch: is,

Adam: please do.

Pronch: you know, you have free will right now. You have the ability to open up the door in your room and go out of that door. But you don’t have the free will to walk through the door that is closed because of the way that the universe was created, if you will. You don’t have that free will. You have the free will to to do certain things, but not the free will to do other things because they’re impossible. And so the question is, why is it possible for things to be like, why is it possible for me to be able to stab you? It’s that

Adam: Mm hmm.

Pronch: if if I have the free will to I have to like the argument that I’ve heard is, you know,

Adam: But.

Pronch: I have the I have the free will to kick a building. I have the free will to to take a take a whiz on a building. But I don’t have the free will to jump over the building.

Adam: Right?

Pronch: And

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: it’s just the nature of the creation that’s not possible. So why is it possible to have this sin when you can do it, when it clearly is possible to set limitations on free will?

Adam: Mm hmm. I don’t know.

Pronch: Hmm.

Adam: I agree

Pronch: And that.

Adam: with that. Trying to be to

Pronch: And that’s cool.

Adam: do something

Pronch: And

Adam: about

Pronch: that’s cool.

Adam: it. I think that I think that that’s one that I think is is we have there are lots of smarter people and wiser people and more scholarly people than me that have dug in and have some there. I think definitely think there are people who have thoughts and hypotheses and answers for that. I don’t I don’t know why why it is necessarily engineered that way. I don’t know. I don’t know.

Pronch: Well. And do you think I mean, we haven’t really gotten into this and this is maybe a conversation that we can reach back to this one. I assume that you believe in some sort of heaven, some sort of afterlife. Is that is that a correct assumption?

Adam: Yeah. I would believe that there is something beyond that, that this physical life that we lead, I think. Yeah, that, that would be

Pronch: Yeah.

Adam: fair.

Pronch: Okay. So again, without, without going into great detail about that because I feel like that’s a conversation for another day and

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: I do

Adam: That’s

Pronch: look

Adam: a

Pronch: forward

Adam: whole other

Pronch: to that conversation.

Adam: topic. Yeah.

Pronch: Do you believe that there is free will in that other location, in that in that life beyond life?

Adam: Yeah, that that’s a great question. I think it’s a very different plane of existence. But yeah, I do think that the you know, if we’re talking about kind of the rules of the game here, I think that if we’re getting deeper and more fully present in in the light of love, I think that, yeah, we, we, we probably somehow have even more freedom because love leads to freedom. Love seeks freedom, love seeks to express itself. And that, that and that is inextricable from from freedom. And it is it is the you know, the desire for control is what drives a lot of the peace. Right. Like like

Pronch: Mm hmm.

Adam: even like you said, even in a good intention, like for, you know, the desire to control our safety and security leads to war, you know. Right. And

Pronch: Yeah.

Adam: so that so yeah. I do think that if there for me as as if there’s if we’re talking about that, what is for what I believe is beyond this life? I think it’s a deeper it’s a deeper dove beyond the veil into it’s like if we’re if we’re dipping dipping a fraction of our toe into the lake of love in this life, I think we get to take the full plunge, you know, beyond this life. And so I think that that is going to have freedom. And it does not and it does not mean that we are just atomic, you know, robots in heaven

Pronch: Mm.

Adam: or something like that. Yeah.

Pronch: So then why does Earth exist? Why does this existence exist? If that existence can exist? Jeepers, that’s

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: a weird sentence. If. If the idea of we can have free will in that deeper plunge, in that greater love experience with the Creator that is wholly and completely love. Why does this plane exist, if that can exist?

Adam: That’s a great question. And I’m going so that I don’t escape it this time. I’m going to say at the root, I don’t know again,

Pronch: And

Adam: but

Pronch: that’s fine.

Adam: I will say I have some ideas.

Pronch: Well,

Adam: So

Pronch: tell me, what are your ideas?

Adam: the.

Pronch: Because

Adam: Yes,

Pronch: I think not

Adam: so.

Pronch: knowing is. Let me let me just put here saying I don’t know is one of the most honest things that a human can do. And it drives the idea of, I want to find out like that’s something I want to think about. I want to find out. And that’s that’s the base of science is I think it’s this way. But I don’t know, let’s let’s figure that out. So

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: saying I don’t know is totally fine with me and the fact you don’t have an answer. I’m not mad about that. I’m blown away that you’re like, hey, I don’t know, let’s figure it out.

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: But what are your thoughts?

Adam: Yeah. But I do think something that’s really interesting is that in the way that the that honestly Scripture, you know, the Bible, which I think we’ll, we’ll keep talking about, obviously we’ll keep coming back to because it’s going to be it’s a key. You know, it’s it’s one of these key tools or artifacts that obviously, you know, people of Christian faith engage with. And I’m one of them for how we understand and how we behave and how we live in the world or relate to the world. So Scripture has this very, very small, small sliver of section that that that peaks at, you know, what is to come or that even sort of kind of guesses or paints, you know, this poetic idea of perhaps what’s to come. And it’s it doesn’t in a very different way than a lot of Christians actually think about. But it does have this this image that what it comes. Later. Is this new new heaven, a new earth? It’s kind of often how it gets put in English in Anglicized versions. But the idea that what’s what’s coming isn’t a replacement or isn’t a transportation from, you know, like this planet across the universe, and then, oh, we get to the good planet. We leave this one behind. But it is this vision that the that the, that the separation or the divide or the gulf between, you know, that world of full presence of of the light of creator and love and what often gets referred to as heaven, that it actually comes and in in harmony, it actually intersects with this world. So one things my friend Steve does, which is a really great visual, is he he holds up and and I know a visual is hard when we’re on an audio podcast, but he holds up to like what they call hula hoops and holds them up and talk and talks about basically creates kind of a Venn diagram So you have you have heaven in one hand, you have earth in the other. And the idea that one of the things that we’re called to do as followers of Jesus is to is not to take people away from this world, but actually to bring love. What we’d also refer to as, you know, like the light of love and truth and justice and peace and nonviolence. Like we’re we’re we’re actually called to have that in intersect more and more with this world, with this earth. And so that that’s kind of our role as Jesus followers and that the whole where we’re where we’re trying to go, where creator is, is is bringing us is not is not separate or taking us away from this world. It’s actually the restoration of all things in this world. And so that Hula-Hoop of of having of light, of love, of peace, of justice, of goodness, of enough for everyone, of abundance, of none of of the the the power of nonviolence that that actually is approaching our world and intersect in inside our world and intersecting with it And so the answer, again, to for a long, roundabout way, when we then when we see this new heaven in a new earth is that we have this world because it is part of the process would be one kind of clumsy way of perhaps asking that question or thinking about that is, is that we are in process and that this world that we live in is in process. And similar to kind of what you talked about, and maybe this will kind of keep taking us. We’ll come back to this when we get to where we going, because I kind of just tip my hand on that before talking about what’s going on, although I guess I kind of talked to a little bit about what’s going on with the sin piece. But where we are going is this belief that that that world is, is in store for us and that the restoration of all things is that the creator is, is, is in that process of restoring all things, and that we are actually also invited to be part of that process as well. And we have power in that process. I think that’s that’s that’s a key image of of why we have Earth is because this is it’s a good place that it is our is our home. And the pieces that that are in need of restoration will will be restored. We get to be a part of that. And our power actually, I think, does the here and now matters. So when I do want to say is one other piece and then I can hear I got you got more stuff kind of clicking and in your brain that I want to hear. I do think that the here what I would say is the here and now matters. So it’s not simply that a foregone conclusion of just going, oh, God’s restoring all things or craters, restoring all things. So a what does it matter what I do? It it, it matters deeply what I do. And also the here now matters. So like you talked about before, you know, tractors, replacing tractors, you know, forming a jump forward in how folks do. You know, Western agriculture can help produce more food, but those folks who, you know, were put out of work, they matter. And so

Pronch: Mm hmm.

Adam: the the here and now matters even as we move towards and get to be part of the the restoration and and liberation or sometimes in scripture called the reconciliation of all things. The here and now does still matter. And we’re invited to be part of each moment in the here and now moving us closer to that hula hoop of heaven completely kind of coming into harm. Only with this Hula-Hoop of this earth. So I don’t think we’re going somewhere else. I think that we’re. I think that this place that there is that there’s work to be done and that and that this place is to be restored.

Pronch: So my my brain wants to go down two different rabbit trails, but I’m not going to let it. I’m going

Adam: Okay.

Pronch: to I’m going to hint I’m going to hint at these rabbit trails for future episodes because I want to have these conversations with you so about.

Adam: Right?

Pronch: But

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: I want

Adam: Each

Pronch: to

Adam: episode

Pronch: bring it back.

Adam: opens up five new episodes.

Pronch: Yeah.

Adam: So

Pronch: Yeah,

Adam: it’s very

Pronch: yeah.

Adam: sustainable

Pronch: So.

Adam: for our for our

Pronch: Let

Adam: long

Pronch: me. Let

Adam: term

Pronch: me.

Adam: broadcaster.

Pronch: Yeah. So let me tell you the where my brain wants to go and I’m going to tell you where I where where we’re where I think we should go. I want to know I want to talk to you in the future about your thoughts on divine hidden ness, because all everything you’ve just described there, divine hidden, this is very much implicated with that. And the problem of evil, I think, is inextricable, inextricably. Well, that’s a hard word to say, very much linked

Adam: Yes,

Pronch: with divine

Adam: it

Pronch: witness.

Adam: is. Yeah.

Pronch: So

Adam: Sure.

Pronch: those are those are conversations I want to have on a future day. But right now, what I want to do is I want to bring it back to the lens that you use to move through the world. And I described in my in the last episode why I believe that lens is accurate, if you will. I don’t know if that’s the right word, but why? That is my lens. Why

Adam: Mm hmm.

Pronch: is what you described your faith and why is that your lens?

Adam: That’s a great question. I think my personal, subjective experience has has almost everything to do with it. I mean, I think the way that I discovered faith and we talked a little bit about it in the opening episodes, like I was certainly predisposed to being having a at least a proximity to faith by having a, a family who attended a faith institution and, and ascribes to a faith tradition. And in in, by the way, which I mean, you know, we went we went to church and and we had a church. And so I think certainly that is it would be ridiculous for me to assert that that somehow that didn’t have, you know, the core that that somehow that had little to do with with why I have faith. Of course, it had absolutely everything you like to do because I, I was predisposed to it. I was near it. I was, I was around it. But like I also said, I think in that opening episode, I think it was a while ago, but you know, there was a point where I then still kind of did my reflection, did my discernment, you know, is this.

Adam: So, yeah, obviously, I was predisposed, but I had to come to a point when I was when I was a teenager, I came to a point where I was like, okay, is this actually what I believe? And so I did undergo that process where then I did come in, come, come to a point when I was about 13 or 14 going, Yeah, I think I do personally believe this, not just because I went to church or my family did, but but I think I really I do personally believe this. And then that was also just to talk about how much processes, you know, we talked about process last episode and process is going to be coming up here a lot. I think that process is a key element of of of everything. And so there it was a process for me and not just one day I was like, Oh yeah, everything is. I just believe everything. But I started as I kind of had this sort of stake in the ground moment of going, Yes, I do think I believe this. Then to go into a process of understanding more of what that means, what the implications are, you know, I believed in the existence of a creator, but what is that creator like? Where does scripture come in? Where does this Jesus person come into it? You know, I, I intentionally have engaged since I was, I guess like 13 or 14 in a process of understanding more about the world, about that creator that I believe in, about who Jesus is. So I think the answer to like what? Like why, why I have a faith has has everything to do with I had a unique, subjective position being close to faith, which then led me to be in spaces that that sparked me to then consider in my teenage years that I do personally have about this personal ownership over this and belief in this faith. And then why I have a faith is I intentionally have been trying to cultivate it throughout throughout the last, you know, 20 plus years of my my not so long life. But yeah, I intentionally have engaged in this in this process. And that involves like, you know, processes and linear. That involves wrestling, it involves doubt, it involves shedding old beliefs. But I think I have I have that faith because the other last element that I’ll say is I had an experiences that I believe were connected to to to communing with that creator. So, you know, experiences that felt, you know, for in a clumsy, for lack of a better term, that felt close to God, that felt like they revealed creator or revealed who, who the experience of of Christ to me. I also had you know, I had proximity I intentionally cultivated, but I also did have particular subjective personal experiences that for me propelled the process forward or solidified certain things or helped me to throw away old things as well. I feel like I had experiences of that creator in my life, in my in my psyche, in the people around me, in the world, around me. So yeah, so proximity, intentional cultivation of that faith and experiences at that faith maybe would be three things that come to mind. First, to say, you know why I have a faith?

Pronch: So that that all makes sense. And I hear and understand it. I definitely do. But what I wonder is, you know, the proximity thing being the first thing.

Adam: Mm hmm.

Pronch: And and, you know, what are the chances that you happen

Adam: Oh,

Pronch: to

Adam: yeah.

Pronch: be raised in the family that happened to worship the correct God? You know, like. And what? Look, let me let me keep going here, because I think that the way that you’ve described your your faith journey to me and, you know, the fact that, you know it’s not cut and dry, the Bible is exactly completely perfect and everything. I think that that that helps me to to think that let’s say hypothetically, you were raised in a in a middle Eastern country of some sort, and

Adam: For sure.

Pronch: you were raised to believe in Allah that that you would have still gone under this under, undergone, not gone under, undergone this this journey of figuring out why and who you believe and everything. But it’s the Jesus aspect that that makes me go. But why that like why is that

Adam: For

Pronch: correct?

Adam: sure. Yeah,

Pronch: Because

Adam: because that’s

Pronch: like

Adam: going to be a

Pronch: when

Adam: unique

Pronch: you have.

Adam: piece here.

Pronch: Yeah,

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: that’s unique to to, to, to Christianity, if you will. Whereas like Allah versus Yahweh way verses like like that you’ve got, you’ve got the God, the creator is one thing that you can believe in as a, as a concept and, and have like theoretically, I guess, have a, have a connection with because that creator is there. But the Jesus aspect of it.

Adam: Mm

Pronch: Why

Adam: hmm.

Pronch: do you think that that is? And if it comes down to it’s your personal subjective experience, then I have to go, okay, well, there you go. That makes sense. But why is that? The the right one, if you will?

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: I don’t know if the right one is the right

Adam: Right.

Pronch: way to say

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: it.

Adam: No, I get what you’re getting at. Like, why was that? The one that I ascribe to? Yeah. And I mean, again, just just to to re reaffirm, like, I can’t say I would be dishonest to say that it didn’t still, you know, fall in a this person’s subjective experience and the and the whatever you want to call it, the luck or the chance maybe is a better way. The chance of, you know, where I was raised when I was raised, obviously being like being a a key factor, you know, a key deciding factor in the fact that I was even had that proximity to get into a space that I could have the experiences and to be surrounded by resources to intentionally cultivate this faith like all that certainly is something that could just as easily, if not more easily, based on the odds of existence, not have happened. So

Pronch: Mm hmm.

Adam: absolutely, it would be dishonest to suggest anything other than that, that that chance has has had a lot to do with why I am where I am. But when it comes to yeah. Why I specifically then, you know, in considering some of those things and I did, you know, have thought through those things and even did when I was a teenager, maybe not with as much, you know, the developed thought or even language for things as I might have now. But I did think about, you know, that that elements, you know, the argument of it’s I could have much more easily not been anywhere near here and therefore I wouldn’t have believed any of this stuff, which is probably true. Y then still did I progressed, you know, y with this faith and y Jesus. And I think that the for me, the I might have talked about this in another episode that we’ve done so far, but I think that the the vision for the world that was that is set out by Jesus. And the more I learned about the the life and the ministry and the. And the work and the. And the position of who Jesus is and what he what he believed about the world and the kind of world that he went about trying to build and to encourage others to join him in building to me was this it continues to be was at the time and continues to be the most compelling vision. And at some moment that a vision that I believe is is the one that is the most successful, to put it in those terms, you know, possible path for us. So if we go back to that that idea that I think I have a ton of overlap with you about that we want the prosperity that we want the. That we want the flourishing of of the people around us and the world that we live in. I found that the way of Jesus and the person of who Jesus was embodied the ways to get there. So to take it back to those things of who are we, what’s going on and and where we going, I think that we have this great capacity for for good. And that makes us great creations, great creatures, great candidates for creator through this Jesus to get us in on the work of creating more good of of spreading more love into this world. We have this capacity for great harm, which is where the sin peace that is detailed in Scripture through many, many different stories and ways and names and expressions. And that’s also, again, why it’s so important that we make choices between what leads to prosperity, what leads to flourishing, and and what doesn’t. I talked about life being a key kind of theme for me, like what leads to life and what what doesn’t lead to life, what leads to harm? And and so I think that Jesus offers. I think that Jesus offers us the the opportunity to get in on what leads to the most compelling case for abundant what abundant life looks like and where we’re going to, again, go back to that third piece, that kind of week framed years as last time is where we’re we’re able and invited to be towards moving to a space where there is real liberation and flourishing for for creation and for for all people. And so that the the way of Jesus continues to be compelling to me. The story of what Jesus what Jesus tells us about who God is and the character of of God, the character of this Creator is is compelling to me. And and it is continues to be that the most. I haven’t yet been persuaded that there is that there is a vision of who the creator is or a vision for who we are at our source, who we can be. I haven’t found a more compelling vision or experience of that than than this tradition that would that we would say has found that God came in the form of this this Palestinian born Jewish rabbi who lived and died and we believed was resurrected. I have not yet come across something that is more compelling for moving us towards liberation or prosperity. And I will also say there’s there’s this I don’t know enough about this to talk deeply, but there is this whole kind of movement within different Christian traditions of of asceticism, which is about that the good and the true and the beautiful are things that guide us and that I have not found a more beautiful vision for the world than then this, Jesus, this, then this, this Christ. And so that has and that is only become more pronounced the more, the deeper I’ve got into these liberating understandings of of who the Christ is.

Pronch: Well.

Adam: So I think that’s that’s why I not only kind of have the faith, but why it’s it’s been something that I’ve intentionally cultivated and why it’s, I hope, grown and deepened in me and also why I why I love talking about it like like, like, like here on this podcast, like with you and or talking about it or, or working with it in my, my day to day work as well.

Pronch: Mm hmm. Yeah.

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: Mm hmm. Oh, my brain wants to go in so many different directions, but

Adam: Well,

Pronch: I think.

Adam: let’s take it back to because we’re again, we’re talking about we kind of hit on these things a little bit. But just to take it back to kind of comparing and contrasting to the last episode.

Pronch: Mm hmm.

Adam: So to kind of recap, you know, I think that we’re we’re created we’re created at our root with goodness. That’s who that’s who we are. And I think I agree that what that with you that I think what that means is that we we really do want prosperity. We want we want flourishing for each other in terms of who we are. We also have this capacity for this sin, I think. And that’s where that’s where we would we would differ on kind of what we would call it or the shape of what it would look like. But we both agree that there’s something getting in the way of that of that pursuit of prosperity. I would differ with with with where you are on. I think that that’s not necessarily a more recent development. And I think that that it’s not necessarily having the key factor, be it be the, you know, society’s growing into kind of larger communities. Although I will say that I think there is this key theme that sin works its way really predominantly through this theme of empire, which I might have talked about before. And I think that this idea of of empire, which is, you know, any of these systems of that are designed to extract, to take, to hoard, to harm, to conquer a lot of ways that probably has a lot of overlapping substance to when you talk about as we grow bigger and we grow these giant kingdoms. I think there’s a lot of overlap there, but I think that sin also runs beyond runs beyond just how society is or isn’t organized. Although how we organize society will certainly have an important thing, have important influences on how much flourishing and liberation we lead to. But I think we would differ on a little bit on the what’s going on there. And I think that because I do think that that there is a personal that that I think sin is systemic and it happens in certain societies. I think it also is something that affects us on individual levels, which therefore then leads and kind of coalesces into like problems of societal structures. Because as individuals, we, we come together and we we create these societal structures. So what’s going on? I think that I think that sin is is a big part. And there’s so many more things that I won’t get into today. But, yeah, this this move towards towards hoarding, towards greed, towards empire, towards this the myth of redemptive violence, towards we talked about lots this this colonial project that we we find ourselves living in and with and are a part of, especially those of us like you. And I heard of settlers who are settlers. That’s a lot of what’s going on is there’s these big problems that I think for for Christians, we would come, we would be able to understand those through this concept of sin and flesh those out. And in terms of where we’re going, yeah, I think that we’re I think that I do think that creator is moving us towards a place where all things are restored.

Pronch: And

Adam: But

Pronch: what?

Adam: I think

Pronch: What

Adam: that the

Pronch: do

Adam: path

Pronch: you think?

Adam: of that is not necessarily set and that we have a big

Pronch: Right.

Adam: part to play in how that unfolds.

Pronch: And what do you think is is the the the the path like is is the path related to everybody, you know, believing in the same degree? Or is it like. Like would would that solve the issue? Like, what do you like? How how how does how does the creator

Adam: Mm hmm.

Pronch: push us down that path eventually? Like like what I was saying in the last episode is I think that,

Adam: He.

Pronch: you know, it’s going to take us a long time. This blip in our evolutionary history is, you know, selfishness and capitalism and hoarding and this and that. But how does how does how does humanity get there and pull what you’re saying, that pull that that that love and that divine to everyone in the long run? And why is it a long run?

Adam: Yeah. Yeah. Because I would I’ll say it. I mean, it’s it’s an even greater challenge from my perspective than what I think you think it is. Because I think that this that this thing isn’t a blip in evolutionary history. I think it’s something that is a constant as constantly been there and will constantly be there until this until the restoration of all things takes place, which I don’t know what that looks like when that happens or how that process completely unfolds. But I do think just to just again, just to point out, here’s where a place where we would differ is. The synopsis would mean that it’s not just it’s not boils down to kind of one way that society is structured and it’s not a blip on the evolutionary kind of journey or trajectory. But it is this it’s a it’s actually a constant in at this at this phase of existence that that continues to rub up against the grain of love and and of prosperity. So so I just so I’ll say that in terms of what I think you’re getting out there, which is a it’s a really good question to clarify, like, is the is does how we get there involve like everybody believing in the same deity or having the same set of beliefs or ascribing, you know, like, does everybody have to be a Christian for us to get there?

Pronch: Yeah.

Adam: Sounds like

Pronch: Yeah,

Adam: kind

Pronch: that’s.

Adam: of like

Pronch: That’s

Adam: what

Pronch: the question I

Adam: you

Pronch: wanted

Adam: want

Pronch: to

Adam: to

Pronch: ask.

Adam: do.

Pronch: Yeah.

Adam: Yeah. Yeah. And that’s and I think that’s a that’s a complex question. I’m going to say the best way I could say it to try and be succinct and clear and down to earth is in the in a short answer. I think the answer is no, because I don’t think if we’re taking our concepts of I’m sorry, I’m just going to mute.

Pronch: Mm hmm. We’ve been talking for a while. It makes total

Adam: Yeah,

Pronch: sense.

Adam: I know. I’m my

Pronch: I’ve

Adam: my

Pronch: had a couple.

Adam: froggy

Pronch: I’ve

Adam: throat.

Pronch: had a couple of Flemmi. Flemmi fogginess

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: in the back of my throat, too, so I totally get it.

Adam: Yeah. So no, I think if we’re talking about our concept of are, which is the goal to create more religious structures and to also just sort of like recruit of all people to one religious structure? No. In fact, I think that that is a way I think that that that’s a way that sin has really been expressed, is that’s a lot of where like that’s how so much of like colonialism got its power, as is through this like unholy alliance with with religion. And we look at like the Crusades or the or the colonization of, you know, Turtle Island, where we live. And it was inextricably linked to this that that exact thing of like what would will make everybody this faith that will make everybody believe this thing. So, no, I do not believe that it that it that that that moves us closer towards the restoration of all things. I think that approach is how sin runs rampant and how destruction and runs rampant and how we move further from away from abundant life. So I don’t think it’s about, well, one day everybody will just be the same religion. But I do think that the one when I talk about that the the lens or the foundation of of who Jesus is and and understanding through Jesus what God is like, I think that those understandings will help move us in the right direction when we when we see what it looks like, what, what love and life, abundant life really can be. So you talked about like the chance of, you know, me being born where I was when I was with

Pronch: Yeah.

Adam: the family that I was. Yeah. I think that you can’t you can’t not look at that and see that. I think it would be dishonest to look at that and then somehow assume that you’re in the right if you had to happen to have the chance to be around those things and you’re in the wrong if you were born somewhere else and you never even heard of this faith or grew up with a completely different structure. So I don’t think that the creator is going to be too worried about the names for God that specifically it used. In fact, in the in Scripture, there are so many there are dozens of names that creator is called dozens of of images because everything at this point is metaphor, right? Where we’re we’re talking about something that’s so beyond our pay grade. And at some point, a metaphor always falls apart, but we use

Pronch: Yeah.

Adam: them because it helps us get close. The problem is, if you follow a metaphor like too long, eventually you’ll create something that’s just wrong. So it’s it’s a constant tension. But I think we can take that lesson and understand that if for somebody who who who was raised and in another time and or part of the world and never heard of of this, you know, this first century Jewish born, dark skinned Palestinian rabbi, itinerant rabbi. Can they still be part of moving us towards this, the restoration of all things. The liberation of all things? Of course. And I think that I think that it’s not about the religious structures and institutions or getting the language right. And I even think that we overemphasize the the the mental ascent piece, which is like that belief piece of like, do you think the right things? And I think because we live in this and that happened because we lived in this post-Enlightenment world where religious structures got really insecure about the fact that they couldn’t they that that that they in many ways couldn’t compete with empiricism. And so then said, okay, well, it’s about what we believe as this like insecure response to the important developments that happened in post-Enlightenment in the post-Enlightenment world. So I don’t even think that the you know, do you think the right thing do you say the right name? I don’t think that that is where the rubber meets the road on. Are we moving towards the prosperity and flourishing and and abundant life and liberation of on restoration of all things? I don’t think that I

Pronch: Okay.

Adam: think that how we actually live and move and use our sacred energies in the world will kind of will kind of help define are we are we serving, are we worship, are we worshiping, for lack of a better word, that creator? Are we living for love? Are. It is, is what matters. And like I said, the beliefs still, I think matter. Like I said, I think at the beginning this episode, like they helped form then how we use those energies and they helped form the faith peace. Will we trust will we trust in in love and in serving someone else when you know at Christmas, when we know that we we have our own issues, you know, our own bills to pay to. So there is a trust peace. There’s a faith peace that that makes belief still very important, very valuable. But this idea that we have to say the right name and it’s about thinking the right thing and reading the right book, I think more often than not, that’s been used to help advance sin in the world and not advance and not advance actually the restoration of all things. So if you live in another part of the world and you are loving your neighbor and you are seeking, seeking to fulfill love by giving empowerment and agency to the people around you. If you’re trusting that the that if you’re trusting that the way of the power of of nonviolence and forgiveness and giving of yourself are the ways of of moving forward and are worthy shapes to life. Then I think that we’re we’re on the same page. And I think that we are serving that greater goal of of moving us towards towards prosperity that you talked about. And and whether or not that actually ascribes or identifies as Christian. I don’t think that at the end of the day, that will be a key, you know, deal breaker. I do think that there is absolutely beauty and wonder and so much to be gained in in engaging and understanding this liberating Jesus. And so I love talking about and I love other people coming to know that too, because that’s been you know, that’s been a that’s been a huge blessing and a gift for me. But that’s not what I spend most of my time, you know, on is I rather people like having a same experience as me. So for me, it’s, it’s how are we actually we can serve Jesus without a here’s a way to say it. There’s Brian Johns, who’s a guy that I really like would say there’s many. Jesus is the way to creator, but there’s many roads to Jesus. And I think that Christianity, as we know it now, is not necessarily the the best representation of who Jesus is on an institutional level in the West anyway, so that I look more for the substance, you know, the foundation of, of the house rather than, you know, the brand or the wallpaper or the paint on the walls.

Pronch: I like

Adam: So

Pronch: that.

Adam: I,

Pronch: That’s a

Adam: I

Pronch: good metaphor.

Adam: really I believe in I believe in that this, this I believe that Jesus is God. And I think that and I think that that creator came in in this person named Jesus of Nazareth. But the how we how other people interpret that engage isn’t as isn’t as key for me as are they are they following that invitation of love that Jesus exemplifies and therefore God is is inviting us into? And I love when people come to know Jesus and experience Jesus. That’s like that’s a great, great joy in my life. And it’s something it’s something I want for for people in the way that it’s been a gift for me. And I want people to be able to experience this great thing that I had. But it’s not something that I set out trying to trying to make the for front of how you follow Jesus. I don’t think how you follow Jesus involves signing people up for a religion. I do think it it it involves sharing this good news of what of of who Jesus is, in the sense of, hey, imagine if this if God was not someone that that just fires lightning bolts down and smite that people that God doesn’t like and and conquers with bloodshed and and and and holds power over others. But imagine if God was was revealed as radically forgiving of giving of themself of of employing this this radical. All transcendental power of of nonviolence. Imagine if that’s who God was. What would that mean for your life as an individual? What would that mean for our world? That’s that’s what drives me. So, yes, I am still. I am still engaged in wanting other people to know that. And I think that can be a good thing. I think we have way more examples of how it’s been used to actually just try and take life away from people and take diversity away from people. So it’s it’s a tricky thing to know how to to share that. I think it’s important for for for me in my life to be able to share that, which is why we were even, like,

Pronch: So.

Adam: chatting. All right. Well, I’m excited to chat about this with you. But it’s not like I don’t look at you and go, well, you know, it would just be better if just Praj just had the if she’d crushes believed the things that I believed.

Pronch: Well.

Adam: And and I don’t think that that will necessarily be the deal breaker on whether you bring prosperity and love to your neighbor into the world around you. So. So it’s it’s a complex is ambiguous. It can be a fuzzy thing but but the the colonial even evangelical project of just what to convert people and that’s what matters That leads to great great death inviting people and to understanding God is this liberating life, giving pure source of love, inviting people to understand that I think is a really, really beautiful and helpful thing that I that I choose to do in my life.

Pronch: Hmm. And I honestly, I think I think that is beautiful. I really do. I think that the way you describe your relationship with the divine and with Jesus and I think it’s beautiful. I think that it makes sense to us. I think that it’s I think it’s really, really great that it’s not necessarily about the wallpaper. It’s about the foundation. I really, really like that metaphor. And the thing the thing that I think that where this is the divergence, this is this is the divergence, I think that the ideas that are ascribed to Jesus for how to work with each other and how to love each other, I think those are great. I think that those makes so much sense. And whether like I personally believe in that Jesus is more of a mythical character that’s been created more than an actual human being. That’s my personal belief and understanding.

Adam: Right.

Pronch: Regardless of that, I think that the the attributes that are being attributed, the words that are being attributed to the idea of working together and and loving your neighbor and all and everything you describe. Beautiful. Where I think the divergence is, is the divine attributions there. And and why why believe in something like that? Like what? Where’s the evidence and why? Like, that’s that’s what I think the hold up

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: is for me is the evidence. And I think that I think that at the at the base, you and I have the same goals. It’s just, you know,

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: we don’t we don’t each other believe that the goals came from the same location, but the goals are the same. And that’s what matters, I think, more than anything is that our goals are the same. And what I’m looking forward to as we continue this conversation is, is finding out more about why is the evidence insufficient for me and why is it sufficient for you? I think

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: that I am looking forward to going down that road more.

Adam: Love it. Yeah, I think. And that’s that’s that’s that’s a that’s a great kind of weight, especially because I feel like I was kind of clumsy in how I went along with this. But I think that’s a good way to sort of like paint that picture of like, okay, then you we take where we’re at and what do we do next. So yeah, I’m excited to, to chat about that.

Pronch: Cool. All right. Well, let’s figure let’s figure out what the next subject is, and we’ll I’ll talk to you next time.

Adam: Talk to you next time.