Ep. 7 – Exploring Pronch’s Worldview

Pronch :
Hi I’m Pronch

Adam :
and I am Adam, and this is Sacred Skepticism, a podcast where we, two friends delve into the depths of spirituality and belief figuring out where we overlap where we share a ton of common ground and when we are far apart as well.

Pronch :
Each Episode unfolds as a unique journey through our evolving perspectives, and we get to see how each other sees the world

Adam :
And this conversation started and then built and built so we encourage you actually to start from the beginning of this season 1 as the episodes build on the conversation that unfolds as we go.

Pronch :
So Take a moment, sit back, relax and explore with us as we uncover the next layer of our shared exploration

Adam :
We love having these conversations, and what makes it even better is knowing that you’re following along with us, So, welcome to Sacred Skepticism

Pronch: So how are you doing?

Adam: I’m good. I, uh. I have snow outside my window, making it slightly prettier than the gray blah it’s been for the last week and a bit. And it’s went. I’ve accepted that it’s winter. I wish it was summer all the time. I’ve accepted that it’s

Pronch: Yeah.

Adam: winter. And, you know, snow is pretty. So even though I hate the cold, snow is visually pleasing. So that’s my that’s my win for the for the world beyond my window this week. How are you doing?

Pronch: I’m doing okay. Here in Oakville, it’s kind of it’s kind of gloomy and gray. You’re a little bit farther north than I am. So you get you get a little bit more snow than I do.

Adam: Yep.

Pronch: And I also I think that snow is kind of winter saving grace. You know, it’s the

Adam: Yeah, exactly.

Pronch: it’s the thing that makes it makes it tolerable. But if it’s just cold, if it’s just dreary, it’s

Adam: Just

Pronch: like, why are

Adam: miserable.

Pronch: we doing this?

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: Like, we don’t need to do this. We can just avoid this whole thing and move on.

Adam: Yeah, I.

Pronch: Yeah, but, but yeah, I think that. I think this is one where you’re kind of you’re you’re going to poke at me and you’re going to ask me some questions.

Adam: Yeah, we talked about that because it’s we wanted to make sure this also is like any good conversation is balance study good relationship is friendship is reciprocal here so we had we had recognized that probably I did a lot of talking the last couple episodes because I talk about this stuff all the time and and you’re curious and I, I have a problem of just I could just talk and talk and talk. So we thought, no, let’s just let’s intentionally make a shift here. And we started talking about this kind of topic a couple episodes of what what the what’s what’s the kind of guiding principle or anchor or foundation or the word we kind of used the kind of metaphor uses like what’s the lens that we use for how we see the world and therefore and then by extension, how we relate to the world around us. So I started talking a little bit about how my faith, you know, is that lens or provides that lens, but that, you know, obviously whether you have a faith or not, everybody’s going to have some kind of some kind of compass, some kind of anchor, some kind of lens for how they see the world around them and guiding principles for how they operate in it. So we wanted to flip that even before I talk more about mine and ask you, Pranesh. What?

Pronch: Mm hmm.

Adam: Yeah. Like when you, when you come to we talked about we were teenagers and then you come into adulthood and you start having, you know, more and more of a specific like, you know, power and certain agency that comes with adulthood. And then therefore how you see the world is going to be interrelated to that. What what is it for you that when you look around at the world, you try and operate out of, you know, it’s a certain posture or to see

Pronch: Mm hmm.

Adam: things through a certain lens. What what what does that look like for you?

Pronch: Yeah. So I mean, I think before I started thinking about this from, you know, a theological perspective or from a from a high moral stance perspective when I, you know, wasn’t Because, again, I wasn’t raised in a Christian house, as I kind of described in our first couple episodes. It it, you know, I went to the camp and, and, and learned all the stuff through there. But once once I was kind of out on my own and, and doing things, I don’t even remember what particular show or movie or whatever it was from. But I remember somebody saying once, you know, don’t be an asshole. That’s

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: like that’s kind of the the religion that they

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: stood by is don’t be in a hole.

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: And

Adam: Love

Pronch: and

Adam: it.

Pronch: I really I really like that makes that makes sense. Like, that’s that makes a lot of sense to me. And I, I want to think about how, how do my actions affect the people around me and that that’s the main, the main driver for me. And that was that was kind of just for a long time. It was just, you know, I want to be a good person because I don’t want people to be mean to me. I, you know, kind of like the golden rule, you know, do unto others as you have done unto you, kind of like that. But there was no more deeper thought really to it than that. It was just, you know, I’m good, you’re good, we’re good type of thing. And

Adam: Yup.

Pronch: and then as I as I, you know, started to think about this a little bit more in the last couple of years where I’ve actually really started to to dove into, you know, the. Let’s hold for 1/2.

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: The code is coming in now. Little Hostess six. To. Nine. Six. For. Six. Again, 6 to 9. Six four. Okay, there we go. So I can ignore that phone now and I can put on silent there. So then as I. So then as I started to think about this a little bit more and and get a little bit more into the thought process of why we are the way we are and thinking about religion and thinking

Adam: When

Pronch: about

Adam: you

Pronch: my

Adam: say

Pronch: thoughts

Adam: we, you

Pronch: on

Adam: mean

Pronch: religion.

Adam: when you say we like people?

Pronch: Humans.

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: Humans?

Adam: Okay.

Pronch: Yeah.

Adam: Got

Pronch: Humans.

Adam: it.

Pronch: Humanity.

Adam: Yeah. Everybody

Pronch: And

Adam: okay? Got.

Pronch: I also think thinking a lot more about religion as well, and I personally over the last couple of years have become quite critical of religion. And it’s one of the reasons why I wanted to have this podcast with you and why I wanted to talk with you

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: is because I feel like my criticisms and negative feelings toward religion, I feel that they are validated and that they make a lot of sense to me. And

Adam: Mm hmm.

Pronch: and that’s why I want to have this conversation, because I wanted to talk to somebody who has the exact opposite perspective on religion. So when I when I look at it now as a person who is thinking critically against religion, let me say it again, as I am thinking now more critically as a person who is not looking at life and morality from a religious perspective,

Adam: Mm hmm. Yeah.

Pronch: I’ve started I’ve started to try to think, what is it for me? What is it for me about? Like, what do I actually believe? As opposed to just don’t be an asshole. And, and where did it come from and why do I think that it came from there? So a lot a lot for me in the last couple of years has been starting to understand evolution more and starting to understand what has humanity been over the last 10,000, 200,000, 4 billion years? Like,

Adam: Mm

Pronch: obviously,

Adam: hmm.

Pronch: humanity

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: has only been around for like 250,000, 300,000 years as the species that we are. But we’ve

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: evolved from a single celled organism over the course of billions of years.

Adam: Right.

Pronch: And the the thing that when I look back at, at what evolution, what we’ve learned from and again, I’m not an evolutionary scientist. I don’t know things in great detail. I want to very much preface that. But

Adam: For

Pronch: what

Adam: sure.

Pronch: I understand is the the fact that we’ve we work together, we prosper. The more we work together, the more we prosper. And

Adam: Yeah,

Pronch: what’s

Adam: I.

Pronch: really interesting about that is, and I think we’ve talked about this as well, is, is how in contradiction the idea of together versus self-preservation is in evolution because the very, very base, you know, Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, the self self is that you need to make sure you have, you know, your own food, you have your own oxygen, you have your own water, like you need to make sure that you can survive at bare

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: minimum. And that’s always going to take precedence over everybody else. So if you just look at it from that perspective, you think, well, you know, who cares about the other guy? Who cares about the person over there? Just, you know, I’m going to take the food that I need because I need to survive. And I think that very, very base level that that that’s still is in who we are. And I think that that still is very much a part of our evolution and Maslow’s hierarchy of needs of of what humanity needs right now. But then as soon as as soon as you have that base level and you’re able to survive, what’s next and how do you work? How do you how do you get more? And how do you and

Adam: And.

Pronch: and that’s where the community come. I just touched my microphone there, and that’s where the community kind of starts to become more important. And what’s interesting is the the community being more important actually helps

Adam: So.

Pronch: you satisfy that base need. And,

Adam: And

Pronch: you know, if

Adam: if.

Pronch: you’re only looking out for yourself and you don’t care about your community, sure, you might survive the night, but you won’t survive the winter.

Adam: Hmm.

Pronch: And that’s why the community has been so important for our development and for evolution and has put us where we are in the in the tree, if you will, in the evolutionary tree and in the the food chain, if you will. Because we work together as a community, because we do this, because we do that, we are more prosperous than when we’re alone. And

Adam: It

Pronch: keeping

Adam: is.

Pronch: all of that together helps me to inform. Why I think the way I do about interacting with the people around me and why I think that, you know, you know,

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: evidence based thinking is so logical because as soon as as soon as you have people thinking on different planes of, you know, I think that this is the way that something is and somebody else is like, well, no, I think you’re completely wrong. I think it’s this. And you start to have that contradiction. The community starts to fracture and starts to not be working together as

Adam: Right.

Pronch: much as it can be. And that’s another reason why I feel like this conversation and conversations like this are so important to and why I love the last conversation we had in the last episode

Adam: So.

Pronch: about the idea of developing the relationship and making sure that while people may think differently, working together is what’s most important. And you know, then there’s I’ve heard a lot of conversations in different podcasts, especially the podcast that I’ve referenced a few times on the show called Dogma Debate Now called the David Smalley Show about morality. And

Adam: It.

Pronch: I’ve heard so many people who are religious fundamentalists very much not the same kind of Christian that you would describe yourself as

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: that say you get your morals from God whether you believe in God or not. That’s where you get them from. And and it’s like that, that that’s not really true for me because of how I think we developed morality, how we developed what is right and what is wrong. And, and, you know, the idea of prospering and working together and to become more and to become better is so important. And the more that we all do better is is going to help us to develop that morality. And there’s there’s kind of this test that I’ve heard described about whether or not something is moral, whether or not something is good, whether or not something helps people to prosper. And, you know, there’s there’s kind of two different theories behind it. It’s, you know, consequential ethics isn’t what causes the least harm or what causes the most benefit or most prosperous that you kind of like look at the look at the actions and you say, like, okay, I have this choice and I have this choice. What’s going to be what’s going to cause the least harm?

Adam: Hmm.

Pronch: What’s going to cause the most prospering? And then you think, well, what for me versus for you? Like, let’s let’s say that you’ve got I’m going to punch you and

Adam: And the.

Pronch: that’s going to make me feel really good. Yeah, it’s going to make you feel really good. But again, for me, who cares? That’s

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: where you introduce it. Again, another theory that I’ve heard described, I believe the guy’s name is John Rawls Veil of ignorance. Do you know what that is?

Adam: I do not.

Pronch: It’s a really fascinating thing that I’ve only heard it described on podcast and things like, I’ve not read any papers of theories on it, but it’s basically Take a situation. I’m going to punch you now. You put yourself behind the veil of ignorance. You don’t know, are you the puncher or the punch? EE And now do you want this scenario to happen? If you if the veil is taken away and it turns out you’re the punch ee do you want to be punched? No. No, I don’t. So

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: with the veil of ignorance, of like pretend you don’t know the scenario, you don’t know where you’re going to be in the scenario. Do you want this action to take place? Are you going to suffer if you are on the other side of the equation?

Adam: Right.

Pronch: And I think that if you take the consequential

Adam: But.

Pronch: ethicists and that’s what’s going to cause the least harms. What’s going to cause the most prosperous ness by the best benefit? And you add John Rawls veil of ignorance. I think that that that kind of really helps to set up a really strong moral structure and a really strong value structure of how to move through the world. And what I think is really funny is like that is so calculated. There’s so much in that that I don’t I don’t do that on a daily basis. I don’t I don’t think about literally every decision I do with, well, weighing the situation way this way, that it’s just kind of ingrained in the back of my brain and grain in the back of who I am about as I go, as I move through the world. I think that if we had to weigh every single action in every single decision that way, it would be impossible. So I think that evolution and developing as a community, developing a with our tribe, if you will, and I use that word to mean like the hundred people that over the last like the interconnected world that we have right now where we’re technically connected, all 6 billion people, that’s very new for humanity, extremely new. In most of humans history, we’ve only had about 100 people in our lives. So and I’m using the word tribe to refer to that, you know, working together as the tribe over all of those hundreds of thousands of years in the billions of years of evolution before that has developed that kind of in the back of our brains for the most part. What do you think of that?

Adam: So let me back again to kind of where you’ve where you come out at the end of that, because you talked about obviously you

Pronch: So.

Adam: think that’s that’s a that’s a good method. But but then

Pronch: Mm hmm.

Adam: you kind of, you know, kind of conceded, like what what are the practical implications of that? So where do you where do you end up kind of then shaking out?

Pronch: So I think and again, it’s it’s not been I’ve not have not done really deep theoretical research

Adam: Yeah,

Pronch: into this

Adam: yeah,

Pronch: at all.

Adam: yeah, that’s fine.

Pronch: But I think that

Adam: Either of it.

Pronch: all of that all the all the that that I’ve just described there, the veil of ignorance and the consequential cynicism and and the community and making sure that we all prosper and blah, blah, blah, and you what causes the least harm. I personally feel like that is something that is ingrained in the back of our brains, that in our brain stem it’s a part of it’s like breathing. And,

Adam: Hmm.

Pronch: you know, when we have conflict, when we have, you know, wars or, you know, we want this land, you can’t be this whatever whatever the conflict may be. I feel like that’s not the brain stem, the foundational part of our evolution and a what of humanity has become. I feel like that’s more front brain. I feel like that’s more immediate pleasure, immediate gratification for me, slash for my tribe versus at the very base level. I feel like all humans care about other humans and want to want to do everything that I’ve just described at a very base level. And it’s only when we start thinking about ourselves or thinking about our immediate group and what do we need immediately versus what is the longer, more prosperous thing? I feel like that’s kind of the separation of of kind of like foundational humanity versus more front brain, more immediate. So that’s why I think like what I was saying there was like, I don’t weigh every decision.

Adam: Right.

Pronch: Every single time I make a decision. I

Adam: But.

Pronch: think that it’s something that humans do at a foundational base level.

Adam: Right. But it sounds like and I correct me if I’m wrong because I don’t want to put words

Pronch: Mm hmm.

Adam: about, but it sounds like one of the at least foundational things as well that I hear in that is there’s the practical thing of, you know, we don’t do that, that you don’t feel necessarily we can weigh, you know, every decision. So maybe

Pronch: Mm hmm.

Adam: poking poking at like how a lens can actually, you know, have efficacy, you know, in our in our relationships around the world. But also that at that at it sounds like a way that you’re also putting it is that at the foundation you believe people are good.

Pronch: Generally, yes. And I don’t know if good is the right word.

Adam: Okay?

Pronch: I don’t know

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: that good. And

Adam: Yes.

Pronch: I don’t think

Adam: Yes.

Pronch: the good

Adam: More

Pronch: and

Adam: about

Pronch: bad.

Adam: that.

Pronch: Yeah. I don’t feel like good and bad are the right terms to use

Adam: You.

Pronch: there. I feel like and maybe, maybe what I’m about to describe can be described as good, but I feel like that’s too surface level.

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: I feel

Adam: That’s.

Pronch: like

Adam: Yeah. Like,

Pronch: I’m

Adam: yeah.

Pronch: at a foundational level at a very base level. I feel like we all want the same things. All humanity, I feel, wants the same things. And those things are to prosper. Those things are to do better. To not be hungry, to to not let

Adam: Much.

Pronch: the child over there be hungry like we all. If I’m I don’t know this to be 100% true, but I’d say most of humanity, if they see somebody suffering and have the like like a see somebody like like a baby on the floor crying, and there’s nobody like you’re going to

Adam: They

Pronch: pick up

Adam: pick

Pronch: the baby

Adam: it up?

Pronch: and make

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: sure the baby’s okay. Right. I know that there’s been studies done on on other mammals. They’ve they’ve put the sound of a crying baby into a field. And like Mother Dear will come into the field and, like, look for the crying baby. It’s just a speaker. But they’ll be looking around for the sound of the crying baby.

Adam: No.

Pronch: Because we all know what that’s what that we know that if if that baby stays there, the baby’s not going to survive. And I think at the very base level, we all have that instinct to, you know, help each other. And when you when you add in all the additional things that we’ve added to our lives, like capitalism and, you know, the desire to acquire stuff and become more and and to become more powerful, when you add all those things in, it pushes against that and it makes you feel like,

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: well, maybe like I mean, there’s a lot of there’s a lot of homeless people. There’s a lot of people who don’t have enough food every day. It’s like, yeah, but I don’t feel like that’s I don’t feel like that is foundation. I feel like that’s new. I feel like that is new to humanity in the last couple hundred years. And the one thing that evolution takes is time takes a very, very long time. And the structure that we have built, the structure that we currently live in, is way too new for evolution to have affected it. And we are focusing more on the front brain, as I’ve been describing it. The the the, you know, immediate gratification for myself slash for my, my tribe as opposed to all of humanity. That makes sense.

Adam: Yeah. Yeah, no, I was I honestly just. I’m engaged. Yeah, absolutely. And that yeah. And I think that was I actually really loved that like kind of that pushback back against even then the framing of of like good as in like it’s good, good or bad and I like going back to

Pronch: Mm

Adam: the what

Pronch: hmm.

Adam: what do people want? What do people like seek and. Yeah, no, I really like that. I think that that’s something that I think even would sharpen how I would talk about mine. So

Pronch: Yeah.

Adam: when you so that that and then the interesting piece there as well is like there seems to then as well you have kind of a premise in there that particularly something has that in the last couple of hundred years that there’s something that has sort of made made the things that push back against the desire for each other to, you know, prosper. And, you know, I talk about that word flourishing, prosper. I think those are interchangeable

Pronch: Mm hmm.

Adam: for kind of

Pronch: Yeah,

Adam: the substance,

Pronch: I

Adam: what

Pronch: would

Adam: we’re

Pronch: agree.

Adam: talking about. So you say in the last couple hundred years you feel like there’s there’s the pieces of how we’re wired, of how we’re built, of, you know, how the world is around us and the, you know, limits on resources and things like that, that particularly in the last couple of hundred years, there are things that have caused that those push backs against the desire for everybody to prosper, to, you know, be more emphasized. Is that is that fair to say? And if so,

Pronch: Yeah.

Adam: what is that what? Especially because that that’s interesting premise of like kind of then the implication is sort of before that we were doing a we were doing better and now we’re we’re doing worse. So I want to hear you talk more about that, that piece of that. What’s that recent kind of development that’s that’s going on?

Pronch: Well, I think and prefacing again, I know everybody is going to hear me say this over and over again and we’re all say this throughout the show. I haven’t done research into it and I haven’t read extensively, Ph.D.,

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: blah, blah, blah.

Adam: Just two

Pronch: I

Adam: buds

Pronch: think

Adam: talking.

Pronch: yeah, I think that it’s the community getting larger for for a lot of humanities history as a species. 100 people was the size of your tribe, the size of your group of people. There wasn’t much more than that. And,

Adam: Interesting.

Pronch: you know, you go back to the middle eight and I want to say a couple hundred years, I’m a couple thousand years may actually be appropriate. Evolution takes millions of years, hundreds of thousands of years for things to actually change. So

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: a couple hundred years to a couple of thousand years is nothing on an evolutionary scale. So I think that it’s the tribe getting larger, the group of people that are in your life getting larger kingdoms. You go back to the Middle Ages and kingdoms and castles being built to separate us like our larger group from that larger group over there. And the idea of of the, you know, going from, you know, I mean, I don’t want this to sound insensitive, but what my brain pictures is huts, my brain pictures, a small group of of humans living off of the land, probably

Adam: Yeah,

Pronch: more like a

Adam: sure.

Pronch: native, more like a native Aboriginal group living off the land, working together, foraging and you know, only needing to worry about a hundred ish people as opposed to as soon as

Adam: You

Pronch: you get

Adam: know.

Pronch: a kingdom developing or as soon as you have a country developing, you now have hundreds. Sorry, you have thousands to tens of thousands to millions.

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: And as soon as you have to you know, we I care about only these millions of people. And you can work like I. And those other millions of people are not us.

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: I think that it’s

Adam: Yes.

Pronch: probably

Adam: Right.

Pronch: the community getting too large. But then the

Adam: Okay.

Pronch: like where my brain goes and my brain doesn’t like is that the community growing has other benefits like and what we talked about before and you said not everybody gets that branch. And I’m like, okay, I agree. Excuse me. When you have people who like growing food, growing food for the masses, more people can focus on other things and creativity can become a thing. And, and and

Adam: Yeah. Like

Pronch: our art.

Adam: Autumn.

Pronch: Art

Adam: Like if

Pronch: can become

Adam: we

Pronch: a thing. And.

Adam: if we actually had proper social supports. Automation

Pronch: Mm hmm.

Adam: of most jobs would actually, like, be great. You know, like, if people didn’t actually have to work and could still prosper and take and have recreation, take care of their families and not, you know, have to work and not necessarily work in a grocery, but be able to do a tons of other things. Automation and labor would be great. The problem is we’re we’re actually not we’re just we’re just putting people out of work with it. And not actually

Pronch: Mm.

Adam: that doesn’t actually lead to prospering for the people who now got automated. It only leads to prospering for like Galen Weston and, you know, the grocery store CEOs and people

Pronch: Yeah.

Adam: like that. So. So.

Pronch: And.

Adam: Sure. Okay. Yeah.

Pronch: Yeah. And I mean, like, I think that like what what we’re basically describing here is, is the Star Trek Utopia of Earth,

Adam: Right?

Pronch: you know, four

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: or 500 years in the future, where we don’t work for for for personal wealth, we work to better mankind and better ourselves.

Adam: Sure. Yeah.

Pronch: Picard says that in Star Trek first contact. And I think that that is I think that’s the goal. I think that humanity could get to that point. That would be amazing. And I think that at a base level, we all want to I think we all want to get to a point where, you know, we don’t work for self wealth. We work for the betterment of ourselves, in the betterment of mankind. And I and when I say betterment of ourselves, I mean who can I be? Who, who and what can I be? What is my potential and what can I what can I do to better humanity? I think that that is a valuable goal, and I think that we’re really far down the capitalism train here. And, you know, it’s one of those things where like capitalism is a terrible sorry is the is the worst structure out there except for all the others. It’s not like it’s the same as a democracy

Adam: I

Pronch: is the

Adam: think

Pronch: worst

Adam: that’s

Pronch: structure

Adam: a

Pronch: out there.

Adam: quote

Pronch: But.

Adam: for democracy. But I see what you mean.

Pronch: But

Adam: Right.

Pronch: but I think it applies. I

Adam: That’s

Pronch: think it

Adam: the

Pronch: applies

Adam: that’s

Pronch: to

Adam: the position you take. Yeah.

Pronch: yeah, it applies to to capitalism. It applies to like the idea of communism, the idea of socialism, like the ideas are are sound. The idea that we let’s let’s all be equal. It’s all work together. Let’s make sense. It’s just how it’s abused in reality. That’s the problem.

Adam: Right.

Pronch: And, and that’s sad. It’s really quite sad. But again, I think I think that’s that’s, you know, the try being too big. There’s too many people that I’m and those other people over there need to keep them away. I got to I got to protect my

Adam: Okay.

Pronch: people. Not those people.

Adam: Right. So. Okay, okay. That’s interesting. Yeah. And that’s that’s like, cool and surprising. And I never thought of it that way. So so a big key piece for you is the ability of, of, of, yeah. Kind of our spheres of community, not just on an individual level but on like a systemic level becoming to too large, almost like, you know, the problem that franchise businesses have when they grow too fast is that inequality like falls out. So that sounds to be kind of a bit of what you’re saying where you see the root of the problem is, is we’ve we don’t have the ability to as we’ve now grown from into these larger societies and into sort of a global elastic world, we don’t have the ability to care and have the quality of have the quality of life or the quality of supports that we would if we were still sort of not necessarily maybe isolated, but if we were still sort of more, you know, smaller societies that were kind of more insular, focused with on their people, is that kind of a fair way to

Pronch: I

Adam: to

Pronch: think

Adam: kind of

Pronch: so.

Adam: identify and articulate what where you feel like that that problem, particularly at the last, you know, of recent history, will say

Pronch: Mm hmm.

Adam: that that’s where you see it kind of going

Pronch: Yeah,

Adam: off the rails about. Okay.

Pronch: I think so. And I think that and that’s not to say that I don’t think that humanity has the ability to get through this particular issue and to to get to the next point. And I think that, you know, if if you extend time out far enough, if you extend it out far enough into the future, probably about as far as we like. Speculate here with me, how long have

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: we had larger tribes, kingdoms and things like that? We talk in a couple of thousand years, like 10,000 years, maybe

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: not.

Adam: Well, yeah, we went back to kind of like Mesopotamia, you know? I don’t know. I don’t know population stats on that. But like we go

Pronch: Mm hmm.

Adam: we go beyond we go beyond ancient Egypt and we’d go we, we’d probably see like in the Mesopotamian civilizations, civilizations, you know, in the in the Middle East.

Pronch: So

Adam: And, you know, those would be

Pronch: he.

Adam: those would be well over, you know, 5000 years old. So probably the you know, those early civilizations were probably 10,000, 12,000 like B.C.

Pronch: Mm.

Adam: I don’t know when I would have, you know,

Pronch: Yeah.

Adam: gotten to a level of population necessarily of a how we think of a kingdom. But we’d be looking back probably almost maybe 15,000 years.

Pronch: Yeah. Yes. And what’s interesting is just total honesty here. My brain doesn’t like how long that is. My brain isn’t like how long that is. My brain

Adam: Why?

Pronch: is thinking on me

Adam: Why?

Pronch: because what I was going to say before when I asked you to speculate is like, I think if we stretch out the same distance in the future as far as we go back before, like when we started grouping together into larger groups than just our immediate family and extended families, I was gonna say, if we go that far in the future, I think this problem’s dealt with. And

Adam: It’s

Pronch: I

Adam: had

Pronch: don’t

Adam: enough

Pronch: like

Adam: time

Pronch: that that’s.

Adam: to process

Pronch: Yeah.

Adam: is

Pronch: And I

Adam: what

Pronch: think,

Adam: you.

Pronch: you know, what we’re in right now is is is a blip of this. This works, but it doesn’t really work. And in my brain, I was thinking 500. I was like, no, no. 500 years ago is only 1500, you know, and and that’s know. And so I, I, I think that this is something that humanity will fix and will deal with, not in my lifetime, but in, you know, 5 to 10 generations. I feel like that’s something that we’re going to be more able to, to, to be more world globally a community. And we’re just trying to figure it out. And, you know, we early 1900s, we had the two world wars and that

Adam: He.

Pronch: was really, you know, my community versus your community and the development of the U.N. and the development of, you know, interconnectivity and global trade and this and that. I think that that’s that’s all that that’s helping us to get there. I mean, if you look at Germany circa 1930 versus Germany circa 2023, that’s a very different culture. It’s a very different like it’s a very different way of interacting with the world and interacting with all of humanity.

Adam: Right. You’re talking

Pronch: It’s.

Adam: about like under like whole whole societies undergoing like massive change. And you can put some timestamps on how long, you know, social change you definitely can take to put timestamps on how, how, how long it takes for significant social change to happen. And it’s somewhere between it. It’s not overnight and it’s not necessarily have to be infinite to experience, you know, massive social change. Is that that

Pronch: Mm

Adam: is

Pronch: hmm.

Adam: that fair to to kind of

Pronch: Yeah.

Adam: say. Okay.

Pronch: Yeah. Yeah, I think. I think that. That’s right. Like, it’s an it’s an indefinite amount of time, but it’s not an infinite amount of time,

Adam: Yeah. Yeah, I

Pronch: I

Adam: agree.

Pronch: think, is the way to put it. And I think that I think that humanity will be able to do it. I just think that I think it’s probably comes down to my community is is is more important than that community. And because the community is getting so large, that’s I think I think that that’s the base of the reason why we have the the the. What’s the word I’m looking for here? Difference in inequality. The why we have the inequality that we do and why we have the political tensions that we do and the feeling of we are like, my, I need to be stronger than you and I need to take over your land or whatever it is. I feel like that’s to because we’re thinking short sidedly about our immediate needs and not about

Adam: The.

Pronch: humanity’s needs as a whole. And the more we work together, the more that we prosper, I think. Yeah.

Adam: Okay. Yeah, no, I think that’s that’s that’s very like illuminating on on kind of. And I think you, you know, you pull a lot of what’s what’s really interesting is it’s is it’s it’s not just. I think it’s beautiful that you pull from, you know, kind of a lot of different angles here of. And again, we’re we’re not we’re neither like we said, neither of us are are academics or work in science or anthropology or history. But but that you’ve you do seem to have a grounding that that you say, you know, you haven’t necessarily thought about this, but I feel like you have thought about this. It’s different articulating it. We don’t often like talk about these conversations at a at a party or at coffee or at the watercooler. Like you don’t necessarily get this deep. And if you do, you

Pronch: Yeah.

Adam: probably don’t want to talk to that person at work very much because they’re the person who always wants to talk about weird deep stuff. But, but, but I do feel like just kind of affirm. Like, I do feel like you have you have thought about this even if this is the first time you’ve kind of articulated in those ways. And and so I think some of those some of those grounding pieces that I’m that I’m like I said, that I’m hearing are that, you know, that we you really feel we all want the same thing and that at our roots we do want to see prospering. We do want it we do want to see prosperity for everybody, for those around us, because that also because that helps us

Pronch: Mm

Adam: as

Pronch: hmm.

Adam: well. And that’s the the expansion of of, you know, society from more, you know, smaller, isolated and maybe more isolated communities into into kingdoms, into empires, into, you know, the world where we have a we have a globalized and increasingly globalized system in our in our world that that is that that has caused has caused a problem in how we can keep up proper care and prosperity for one another. And that we and that then the third piece that I’m hearing there is that this is not a foregone conclusion, that that has to be just this perpetual motion getting worse and worse, but that if given enough time in process similar to how you interpret, you know, that the the evolutionary process takes takes time and and and takes kind of, you know, some form of trial and error

Pronch: Mm

Adam: that

Pronch: hmm.

Adam: given

Pronch: Definitely.

Adam: enough given enough time and given enough time and process, things will work out and and kind of course correct themselves to get back to a point where, where there is both, you know, this massive world of billions of people and probably by this point, much

Pronch: So.

Adam: more than billions. But but that there will be this world of that’s interconnected and and massive kind of massive shared global community. And that we will we will like. Do you think we we we will reach that. And I know my dad’s a Trekkie, too, so I’m not I love that you’re pulling on Star Trek because I love pop culture. So even though I don’t know Trek as well. So please correct me. Like, do you think we do you think we will get to that? You know, if Star Trek is is kind of this utopian, where it’s the world where everybody is working for the common good and not for personal wealth, but for the betterment and prosperity of, you know, the world and perhaps like the cosmos or whatever. Do you do you think that we will get there? Like really stretch? Do you think we’ll get there?

Pronch: So I want us to get there

Adam: Hmm.

Pronch: and whether or not I think we will. I mean, I think that. Like one of one of the things in Star Trek that makes it possible for them to have a utopia and this is explained in canon

Adam: Get.

Pronch: is the the scarcity of resources no longer being a thing.

Adam: Right?

Pronch: The

Adam: Yep.

Pronch: fact that like they developed replicators and replicators can, can make food appear out of thin air and can make blankets appear out of thin air. Like, like the the skirt

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: era of scarcity, I think is what it’s described as is over. And I think that, you know what you just what you said earlier about how automation will, you know, if it was done properly with proper social structures, blah, blah, blah. Automation is going to that’s pushing us in that direction. It’s pushing us in the direction of humans don’t need to do this anymore. We can do this instead. Humans

Adam: Mm

Pronch: don’t

Adam: hmm.

Pronch: need to do this anymore. Now, again, right now, it’s capitalism that’s driving it and that’s causing, you know, massive inequality, all of that. So

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: don’t

Adam: No one

Pronch: don’t

Adam: who gets

Pronch: think that

Adam: automated

Pronch: I’m not

Adam: out of

Pronch: that

Adam: a

Pronch: I

Adam: job

Pronch: have.

Adam: is getting a better job right now. Yeah.

Pronch: Yeah.

Adam: Or

Pronch: Yeah. But

Adam: is get

Pronch: if

Adam: is saying

Pronch: you look

Adam: we’re going

Pronch: at.

Adam: to we’re going to pay you what we paid you. You don’t have to work anymore. Like nobody’s getting that

Pronch: Yeah.

Adam: right now.

Pronch: Not yet. Not right now. But. But, like, if you look at the tractor as the

Adam: Mm

Pronch: exact

Adam: hmm.

Pronch: same thing as automation, if you look

Adam: Mm

Pronch: at

Adam: hmm.

Pronch: like before

Adam: Yeah,

Pronch: the tractor

Adam: sure, sure.

Pronch: leaves 80%. Again, I’m just pulling a number out of the air here. A large portion of the population worked on a farm to make food for themselves and others, and then the tractor was developed and then one person was able to harvest an entire field as opposed to 30 people harvesting a field. And when

Adam: Sure.

Pronch: the tractor came out, there was the same type of uproar and this is going to destroy jobs and blah, blah, blah, blah. And it did. And it did. For a period of time, there was unrest and uncertainty and people without work. But we look back now. You look back far enough and you go, well, that’s not a problem. And it hasn’t been a problem for a long time. And I feel like we can have the same thing happen with automation and have the same thing happen with with it. Like just the next big disrupter comes in and oh, no, no rush, blah, blah. But in, in, in 20 years, 50 years, it’s going to be. Wow, that was a big scare. Glad we got through that. And I feel like we can keep on doing that over and over and over again until we’re at the point where we’re we have the Star Trek utopia, but it requires the era of scarcity to be over and the era of I have enough food for my people to be over and for like, no, no, no, everybody has enough food, everybody has enough shelter. And it requires humanity to be thinking more about humanity than to think about profit. So I want us to get there, too. I think we will get there. I don’t know. I don’t know. I honestly don’t know because there’s there’s another theory out there in science that explains why haven’t why haven’t we found aliens yet? You know, you know, the universe is 13.8, 14 billion years old. Earth is only 4 billion years old. What’s going on? And there’s

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: this theory. I got to remember

Adam: It

Pronch: what it’s called,

Adam: is

Pronch: that

Adam: the dark

Pronch: exploit,

Adam: forest.

Pronch: you know, so it’s that but it’s also like there’s these these filters that you need to get through before you can become the next stage of a society. And we’ve gotten through the majority of the filters you filter. One is, is, you know, being able to develop like, like farming and the other. But I kind of I got I got to rewatch the video. There’s a YouTube video by Kirk’s Gizzard that

Adam: Back.

Pronch: that talks about it. And I’ll watch it and I’ll come back in a future episode with what the name of it is. You know, I actually just hold here for 1/2. We just find the name of it to me 1/2 here, Okay. So, yeah, I just looked it up. It’s called the Fermi Paradox and the Kursk Hazard YouTube Channel. There’s two videos. Why? Why, where are all the aliens? Is basically what it is in the Fermi paradox is this idea that we should see more aliens because of how much time has passed and how you know, how old earth is versus how old the universe is. Where are they all? And one of one of the things that’s in there is these different filters that society needs to get through. And, you know, if we can get to the point where we’re past the era of scarcity, where you can you can then start to, you know, branch out and take, you know, go out into the stars and go into this. But if you can’t get through these filters society, you’re society just dies in the whole whole of your society just gone. And it’s whether or not we can break through those filters of, you know, our population is growing, our population is growing very, very fast. And we have more people every single year, but we don’t have the resources to take care of everybody. And if we do, we’re not properly sharing them. It’s funny, I don’t fully remember exactly how I got on this train. The question was, will we get there? That’s what you were asking is will

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: we get

Adam: Will

Pronch: there?

Adam: we get to it? Yeah. Well, what’s the destination like? What do you believe about the destination? Like, where are we headed? And will we get to where we want to get to?

Pronch: I think that eventually, yes. I think that we will break through those those societal filters. And I think that. But but I don’t know how much suffering will take place between now and then.

Adam: Right?

Pronch: You

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: know, will. Will we have a Third World War? Will we have a mass die off because of selfishness, because of capitalism and because of, you know, looking for. Looking out for myself and my family, my. My group of people. And not caring about

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: the other group of people. I don’t know.

Adam: And the war and environmental devastation

Pronch: Mm hmm.

Adam: that’s occurred. Yeah.

Pronch: Yeah. So I think that we will I think that humanity will get to that point. But when and how much suffering takes place between now and then? I don’t know. And that’s sad.

Adam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, that’s fair. I mean, yeah, that’s I mean, that’s not I think anyone who’s going to be honest would say, of course, none of none of us know

Pronch: Mm.

Adam: really. We can’t we can’t predict. And but I appreciate at least then it’s helpful to know where. Yeah. Where you’re but where your hopes lie and where your expectations lie. Because I think that that is I think that that is, you know, who who are we, you know, as people, you know, as individuals and also as you know you know, as a species, is is a key thing here for whatever lens we’re coming at, whether it’s a faith based lens and on faith based lens or something else. And who we are is is key to that. What’s going on in the world, recognizing what’s what, what works and what doesn’t is key for that. And where we headed

Pronch: Mm

Adam: is

Pronch: hmm.

Adam: key for that. So I think that’s helpful because I think then in one in the in the on the next episode, when I chat a little bit about that, I think that’s helpful for, for kind of painting the picture of, of, of how this lines up with where I, with how I, you know, what I believe and how I operate and what my lenses and where and where we differ as well. So I think

Pronch: You.

Adam: that’s that’s how I’ll kind of try and frame that. That’s there’s three pieces to kind of be able to paint that as sort of the, the, the other piece of this sort of to these two twin episodes,

Pronch: Mm

Adam: you know,

Pronch: hmm.

Adam: who are who are we? What’s what’s going on? What’s what’s what, what, how, which includes, you know, what what helps us and what doesn’t help us and where we headed.

Pronch: Yeah.

Adam: And, you know, with that with that that that elephant room question of where we headed also implies will we get there?

Pronch: Yeah.

Adam: So I’ll try and yeah, I’ll try and kind of have have mine built as much as I can sort of around those things so we can, so we can kind of compare and contrast. But I think that I think that where you’ve you’ve been able to articulate where you’re coming from is really is really helpful. And I also, you know, say without tipping my hand too much, I think it’s there’s there’s a whole lot of beauty and truth in exactly what you’re and what you said in relation to those those questions and those kind of categories. So

Pronch: Hmm.

Adam: yeah, so I’m excited to kind of keep digging in more.

Pronch: Yeah. And it was it was fun, like you said it a couple of minutes ago. I haven’t really tried to verbalize it before. I haven’t really tried to verbalize my thoughts before. I, I spent the last couple weeks before this recording thinking about what I what I think, thinking about what I think.

Adam: Yup. Yup.

Pronch: And even that was was a weird exercise to to think about what I think

Adam: Yeah. Why?

Pronch: and.

Adam: Tell me why. I can’t. I think we’ve kind of reached a natural endpoint here, but I

Pronch: Uh

Adam: do

Pronch: huh.

Adam: want to hear a little

Pronch: Well,

Adam: like,

Pronch: it’s

Adam: yeah.

Pronch: just

Adam: That

Pronch: it’s

Adam: process

Pronch: one of those things

Adam: for

Pronch: that.

Adam: you. What’s

Pronch: Yeah,

Adam: weird

Pronch: it

Adam: about

Pronch: was

Adam: it?

Pronch: it was it was weird because, because it’s digging into that back of the brain in my mind, like the way that I’m the metaphor, I’m trying to drive here. It’s, it’s it’s digging into that back of the brain. It’s not something that I actively think about. It’s just I move through the world in the way that I feel is correct. And why do I feel it’s correct? Well, that’s what I need to think about, is what? Why do I feel? That’s correct.

Adam: Yeah, right.

Pronch: And, you know, having listened to the podcast that I’ve listened to and and I honestly feel like that’s helped me to develop the words for for for how I feel and what I feel and why I feel. But it was just it was a really interesting time to just kind of think about it and then to actually make the words come out of my mouth and to articulate. I know that

Adam: Yeah.

Pronch: I probably could have said things better. I probably could have said more things, better things. But I still it was it was really fun to be able to actually say this out loud and actually be like, Yeah, yeah. What I’m saying that makes sense. That is what I that’s how I feel about it. And that’s what I think. That’s why I think, yeah, it was it was neat.

Adam: Love it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that’s you talked about I mean, when we talk about process, you know, whether it’s evolutionary process or social process or thought like that, I think that you’ve you’ve you’ve hit on what that the beauty of being in that that process of

Pronch: Mm hmm.

Adam: of really going what do I believe? And again, whether you come from a faith perspective or not, you really can’t escape. We’re all we all believe something. And I think we really I think you’re right. We all really do. We believe something about, you know, who we are as a person, who we are as a species, what’s what’s going on in the world and where we’re headed. I think we all do have beliefs around that. And so it is it is sad that I think only only faith perspectives often get that space or have those or have those structures and frameworks to really think about those. Think about beliefs, to talk about beliefs and why I think we need more spaces beyond faith spaces for people to to do that process that that you did of going, yeah, well what do I believe? Because I think, you know, our beliefs form, you know, our actions, our beliefs form our relationships with the world around us. So yeah, so I think it’s, it’s beautiful to, to engage in that process. And I’m, I think you’ve been a great example of you do not have to have, you know, a faith perspective to engage in that process and for it to be to to be stimulating and to be fruitful. So,

Pronch: Yeah.

Adam: yeah, this this is great. I think that’s I think that’s a good kind of natural end point for this. And then we will have our kind of twin episodes next where

Pronch: Yeah.

Adam: then we we turn kind of the the spin the chair back around, put me on the hot seat again. And,

Pronch: Sounds good.

Adam: and this is good because this kind of informed on, you know, how I will think about it and speak about it. So

Pronch: Mm hmm.

Adam: yeah so on

Pronch: All right.

Adam: to

Pronch: Well,

Adam: that.

Pronch: till next time.

Adam: So next time.