Adam (00:00:01):
I am recording.
Pronch (00:00:04):
Alright. Right. Awesome. So how you doing?
Adam (00:00:08):
I’m good. I’m excited. Excellent. I am feverish with anticipation to find out why I’m here.
Pronch (00:00:14):
You have no idea why you’re here. And we also, nobody knows who we are. That’s true. First off,
Adam (00:00:20):
Who are you? I’m Adam.
Pronch (00:00:22):
Adam. Okay. Now, Adam, do you know how long we’ve known each other?
Adam (00:00:25):
I would say 2005 or four would’ve been when we met. So almost 20 years. We’re almost at the double decades.
Pronch (00:00:36):
I’ve got it at 2003. And the reason I got it 2003 is I actually remember how we met. I think we had known about each other for a while, but also we’ve told this story before and you may not remember. Oh,
Adam (00:00:49):
I’m sure I
Pronch (00:00:50):
Know how we met.
Adam (00:00:51):
Well, I remember a specific story. I’m not sure if this is the one you’re going to tell, but I would imagine it is, and this is going to make me look like a total dick right to start.
Pronch (00:01:00):
Oh, excellent choice of words.
Adam (00:01:01):
Yeah, exactly. Choice. Oh yeah, I remember this. This is good. So you’re setting everybody against me to start and we’ve just begun right off the get go.
Pronch (00:01:09):
Right off the get go. Yeah. Okay. So we we’re 16 ish years old and we’re in leadership development camp. We’re at one of the United Church camps in Ontario, and I am posing for a picture
Adam (00:01:24):
People, I couldn’t remember what you were doing. Yeah, you were posing for a picture.
Pronch (00:01:27):
Posing for a picture. I don’t know. Why do people do this when they’re posing? They lean in and lean down. I don’t know why people do that. I do it.
Adam (00:01:36):
You had a power stance where you had this legs like superman pose, power base player pose. So was you were just for what was about to happen happen. My legs. Yeah.
Pronch (00:01:48):
Yeah. And my legs were a little bit spread out and I was kind of power posing and the next thing I knew I was getting kicked between the legs from behind.
Adam (00:01:56):
Yeah. Yeah. I came up behind you and I hoofed you not as hard as I can because it wasn’t malicious. Well, it was malicious in what happened, but there wasn’t malicious intent. No.
Pronch (00:02:11):
There was an opening.
Adam (00:02:11):
There was an opening, but it was more than a little coming by and a little tag with the hand, like, I hoofed you, I hoofed, I kicked you right in the crotch.
Pronch (00:02:22):
Yeah. And that’s how we met. I think we had both known about each other. We had known each other existed prior to that moment, but we had never met. And I, I’m pretty sure that that’s how we met.
Adam (00:02:32):
Yeah, I would recall that that would’ve been at the end of the week. So if people were posing for pictures, I would imagine. But certainly I had not met you before that week. We did not know each other well and why I thought here’s, I mean, I’m a sarcastic guy, so I often will make jokes and that’s how I get to know people too. And then they know my humor. But this is a one time, no one else has ever been with a swift kick in the nuts, and I am still so sorry, but I’m glad that we’re friends now that we can laugh that I had just, and I can’t believe we’re still friends now considering that was the first impression.
Pronch (00:03:16):
Yeah. No, I think it’s great. I love that. That’s our kind of origin story. I think it’s really, really fun. And I don’t look back on that with animosity at all. I look back and that’s a really funny way to meet
Adam (00:03:25):
It and I don’t know how much you know about this is going to sound, so literally an older boy told me to do it. There was another counselor on staff who was also mischievous, and we were volunteers. We weren’t staff yet, we were leaders in training. So we were volunteering this week and he was an older guy on staff and was, I think he saw you posing it. He was like, and he might not have even meant, Hey, actually go do it. He might’ve just been musing like, oh, he’s asking for a kick in the nuts the way he’s standing right now. And then I think in my 16 year old impulse only brain was like, that would be funny. And then just went up and actually did it. Yeah. Oh boy. Oh boy.
Pronch (00:04:15):
That’s kind of our introductory story and I love it. Yeah, that’s our arch story. What I wanted to do is kind of talk about each other’s. I wanted to learn from you your history through camp process and where you are now, who you work for, and how you came to that role in your life and what the religious church camp experience was for you. And I tell you what it was for me and learn about that from each other. So how did you start going to camp?
Adam (00:04:53):
My mom made me.
Pronch (00:04:55):
Okay, okay. That’s a good point. But was there any cousin or family member that was already going to this camp?
Adam (00:05:01):
Yeah, exactly. So yeah, so the short answer is my mommy made me, and I’m so glad that she did force me because all I wanted to do back then was just play video games all summer, which is still what I want to do, but I like to have a balance. I like to have a
Pronch (00:05:13):
Balance. It’s a good pastime.
Adam (00:05:15):
And now you can have a switch and I can play video games outside. But one of my childhood best friends, his name is Doug, and we went to church together. We went to United Church together since we were little kids, like toddlers. And he had gone to this United Church camp, which I think, yeah, it was the same one that took place, that origin story. So he had gone to this camp, I think since he was probably six or seven, but I had never, my family were big. We went camping. So we had a trailer for a season and we’d go to Bonko or Algonquin. So we would often go camping as a family in the summer. But I had never, other than some day camps run out of schools and community centers nearby. I had never done an overnight camp until, I think I was 11, maybe just 11 or 12, I think about that age. And so I’d never done an overnight camp and my best friend had been going there for years and said it was great. And specifically had gone in this camp to what they call the wilderness program, which was a canoe trip down the Grand River.
Pronch (00:06:26):
Did you start off right from the get-go doing wilderness right off the camp?
Adam (00:06:29):
Yeah. Yeah. I was never a camper. I was only ever a camper on these out trip style program. So the canoe trip at this camp that went down went basically from Cambridge and took the Grand River all the way to around Branford. So yeah, I was always a wilderness camper. I was a wilderness kid, so I was maybe 11 or 12, and it was definitely Doug going there and then my mom connecting with his mom and being like, my kid needs to stop playing video games all summer. He should go with Doug. So I was like, I did not want to go for any other reason than I was just like a lazy kid. He just wanted to sit around. But I was excited that I was going with one of my best friends. And so that’s the story of me first starting at summer camps.
Pronch (00:07:22):
And what was you being a lazy kid and wanting to just stay at home, play video games? Was it the fact that your friend Doug was there? Is that why you were like, yeah, I’ll go, or was there it or were you nervous?
Adam (00:07:36):
I mean, I probably was nervous, but wouldn’t have admitted at the time that I was like the first time you go to camp and you’re going to be, it’s a scenario where you’re going to be surrounded by probably mostly strangers. And that’s why most kids go to camp often have at least one friend going because I mean, even to this day, I run events and stuff and we always have trouble getting new people out unless there’s someone going. And so now picture you’re going to do a week with a bunch of people. But no, I didn’t want to go and I was convinced that I wasn’t going literally until the day of my mom’s like, okay, pack we’re going. And I was convinced that I was not going until the time she opened the door and kicked me out of the van and I was there at camp.
Adam (00:08:23):
Then I was like, I guess I am going. So it was, it’s nothing against Doug. I was just like, I don’t want to, again, we were campers as a family. I liked canoeing, but I didn’t want a canoe. I’d never done an overnight canoe trip. And I was like, I don’t want to do that for three days. That sounds like blah to me. And I had gone to church all my life, but it didn’t really make a difference, or at least it didn’t mean anything deep to, I shouldn’t say it didn’t make a difference because I’m sure it did, but it didn’t really mean anything to me, like the spiritual nature of it or what it meant to me personally. I didn’t think about that. And so also knowing that this was a church camp, I was like, oh, I don’t want to go sing songs for about Jesus for a
Pronch (00:09:12):
Week. How old are you again? How old are you?
Adam (00:09:14):
11 or 12. You’re
Pronch (00:09:15):
11. Okay.
Adam (00:09:16):
So perfect. Snot knows middle school, just old enough to think I’m basically an adult, but still completely a baby child.
Pronch (00:09:23):
Right, right. It’s funny. So I was going to a different camp, one of the sister camps of the one that you went to, and I think we went the same year. I think my first year going was 1997 where I would’ve been nine or 10.
Adam (00:09:36):
That would’ve been a couple years. I think my first year was 2000. So you might’ve started a little bit before me.
Pronch (00:09:42):
Gotcha, gotcha. Okay. So how I ended up going to these camps was my cousins, my mom’s very closest family member that she’s, my entire life, this person was a major person in her life. He had two kids and they went to this camp and it was two and a half hours away from where we lived because they lived in Bruce County area and it was really close to them. And we ended up going there just because our cousins were going. And my mom didn’t know anything other than that. It was a camp that my cousins went to. And so she didn’t know that it was a church camp. She knew it was a sleepaway camp, and she was a kind of a single mom at that time. My stepdad was in our lives at that point, but they weren’t married and he wasn’t, if I’m remembering correctly, oh geez. If he listens to this, he may be like, I was living in your house long before then, but it’s
Adam (00:10:42):
Hard to look back that far.
Pronch (00:10:43):
You know what? No, no, no. He’s been around a lot longer than that. I got to edit this part out. She was not a single mom at this time. I’m pretty sure my stepdad came into my life when I was about seven.
Adam (00:10:53):
That’s okay. You said it was 2003, our origin story, and I know it was 2004 when I did LID camp, so it’s okay. No,
Pronch (00:10:59):
I was on PERM staff in 2004.
Adam (00:11:01):
Well, but we
Pronch (00:11:03):
Did LID the year before.
Adam (00:11:05):
No, I did live in 2004, and then I was on PERM staff the year I did lid, but 2003 was my SIT year. Yeah, I know that for sure.
Pronch (00:11:12):
Yeah. Well now I’ve got to go. Okay. Okay. So they weren’t 19 years, but that’s, I vividly remember it was 2004 that I was on PERM staff, not oh five.
Adam (00:11:20):
I’m pretty sure you’re wrong. You did lid one and I did lid two. Anyway,
Pronch (00:11:24):
We did live the same year. I know that.
Adam (00:11:26):
Yeah, for sure. And it was for sure four. Yeah. So anyway,
Pronch (00:11:30):
I believe you. I believe you. But yeah, so we ended up going to this church camp entirely by accident. It was not necessarily, my mom was sending us to church camp. She was sending us to camp, and it happened to be a church camp.
Adam (00:11:41):
Well, and the name of the camp that you went to, there are other camps of that name too, and even another one that’s actually nearby. So it totally makes sense that you’re like, oh, here’s this camp. Great. And then you’re like, oh, it’s exactly Oh, a Jesus thing.
Pronch (00:11:54):
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And I mean, my cousins were going and it was just an easy place for, actually my cousins were my sister’s age. I’m pretty sure that I went and didn’t know anybody. I’m pretty sure I ended up bringing a cousin of mine a couple of years later. But I went to main site off the get go. I wasn’t a wilderness camper until, which
Adam (00:12:12):
Main site would be for those that dunno the kind of classic sleeping in the cabins, eating in the dining hall, the wilderness is the out trips going on a canoe trip or something. Main site is playing the big field, swimming at the lake on site, sleeping in the cabins. That’s what we call main site.
Pronch (00:12:29):
Yeah, thank you for clarifying that. That’s absolutely right. But yeah, so I did that for the first couple years and I didn’t end up doing wilderness until I think my third or fourth year, but once I went wilderness, I never turned back. Wilderness was where it was at. So much
Adam (00:12:43):
More fun. Yeah. I loved wilderness.
Pronch (00:12:46):
I mean, the rules were obviously there, but it was so much more relaxed and the schedule was not as fixed.
Adam (00:12:53):
And I would’ve said it was a safe version of Lord of the Flies because you wake up and the counselors are like, what do you guys want to do? And we’re going to create a game where we dig, dig little tunnels in the dirt and race bugs and kids are like, and the counselor was like, great. Sounds awesome. So you just make up your fun A, which we both are creative types and now do that with our lives. I think that’s why it spoke to us so much. It was just like, invent your own fun. And I’m like, oh hell yeah, that sounds exactly what I want to do.
Pronch (00:13:25):
Yeah, it was so good. And I loved canoeing, and I loved canoeing at night and going out and doing stuff. I remember there were times where we were canoeing from one side of the lake to the other, past the main site, and they were already getting ready for bed
Adam (00:13:40):
And you’re still awake.
Pronch (00:13:42):
We were awake and we were canoeing. Adventure. Yeah. We’d sing at the top of our lungs while we were canoeing just to annoy them.
Adam (00:13:49):
That’s cool. Because we did a canoe trip that was on, we never did night canoeing because we were on a river and you
Pronch (00:13:55):
On an actual
Adam (00:13:56):
River? We were on a trip. So we never really had that experience, but I’ve done that now since then at that camp that you are at. But yeah, night canoeing is a blast.
Pronch (00:14:08):
So good, so good. I actually did the canoe trip for my camp when I was 14 or 15, I can’t remember how old, before youth camp. I ended up doing it. And I had never done a canoe trip before. I’d never portaged. I had never done any of that stuff. And that was so neat to be actually canoeing on a river where you can’t go back up. You’re going down
Adam (00:14:30):
The river. Yeah, there’s only one direction. And if your canoe tips, you’re just floating down the river in that direction.
Pronch (00:14:36):
Yeah, too good. Was there, did you do a youth camp at your
Adam (00:14:41):
No, there was no youth camp at my original camp. They did have what they called a senior, which was kind of the same age. So I did senior wilderness when I was, that was a 13 to 16 or 14 to 16 age, and that was my last year as a camper. But the camp you went to had a big youth camp for high school age, but no, there wasn’t, wasn’t a camp like that at the one that I went to. So right after I finished being a camper, then I went into what was called SIT, which was servants in training, which was kind of the first level of a leadership training program.
Pronch (00:15:22):
Okay. Okay. So let me tell you a little bit about the youth camp and the experience there. So youth camp, so much fun. The games and the activities just amazing and the canoeing and all that stuff and hanging out with kids, you’re all high school kids and you’re all a little awkward, but you’re all hanging out and having a lot of fun. But there was a church service that they had on Wednesday or Thursday night at a really tiny church just down the road. We got on a hay wagon, took that for a 10 minute ride and we crammed 120 ish people. There was 60 staff members and there was 60 campers. There was a one-to-one ratio because there was so many volunteers. People loved this youth camp so much that they would keep on coming back and would volunteer for any random task. Like, oh, let me be in the kitchen. So there was 60 staff and 60 campers. We would cramm them all into this tiny church that was maybe fire coded for 70
Adam (00:16:19):
Totally.
Pronch (00:16:21):
And the staff would put on this amazing concert. There’d be a really amazing sermon. And I remember this was my, if you will come to Jesus moment, if you, before this, I had been just a guy who was going to camp and I was the guy who I actually engaged with the counselors when they asked questions during group time. I was the guy who was like, well, why is nobody talking? Here’s the answer to your question. So I was always the most engaged because kids don’t want to answer questions about this stuff awkward. But up until this point, I was just a guy going to camp who knew the answers to the questions they were asking.
Adam (00:17:01):
And we should say, these camps are, we would have these little group times where we’d talk about biblical stuff or spiritual or what do you think about Jesus? But outside of that, the games, and there’s really the majority of the programming. Anybody can come and it’s just super fun, high energy games. And then they would do what’s called session and group time, and that would kind of be sort of the Christian content during the day. So it was nice because obviously it’s a Christian camp, so they’re going to do that stuff, but it was still, you could go and be like, I’m not here for any, I was like, I’m not here for the church stuff. I’m here for the canoeing or the games and still have a totally great time.
Pronch (00:17:43):
Yeah, yeah, I remember. Yeah, that’s a great point. Clarifying all that I didn’t, and it’s one of those things having the internal context in my own brain, so I appreciate you helping the audience members know what we’re talking about. So yeah, during this church service though that we went to that Wednesday or Thursday night, they did this really amazing metaphor. So it was really powerful message, powerful singing and really altogether. And then there was this one metaphor they did, they took some sort of mixture of liquids and they took this clear classic cup and there was some dirty liquid in it. I don’t know what it was. And then they poured bleaching water into it basically, and they turned the water perfectly clear. And I remember that so vividly, and the metaphor of the cleansing of your soul and cleansing of your spirit and washing the sins away. And that’s what Jesus’ death was for. And I lost, it just started bawling. I remember being so emotional and there was three or four other pretty close friends at the time, some people that I still know today that were in a similar boat and we were just wrecked, just wrecked. Most of the camp filed out and there was seven or eight of us that were
Adam (00:19:00):
Just, I need a minute, I need a minute. And
Pronch (00:19:03):
I remember the counselors coming over and consoling us and talking to us and helping us. But that metaphor, it was the first time that it actually hit me,
Adam (00:19:11):
And I actually fully understood. It’s one of those things where it’s something, it just hits you in a different way. Yeah, totally.
Pronch (00:19:21):
Yeah. So did you have any moment like that in your youth? In your childhood? Yeah. You went to church before? I did. Right. So did you have a moment like that?
Adam (00:19:32):
Yeah, yeah. I went to church as a kid, but there’s something that’s for folks who have spiritual, whatever you want to call it, spiritual awakenings or epiphany moments or come to Jesus moments. And I’m very aware that for some people those are really hard things because a lot of people have experienced those moments in a really toxic and manipulative way. So a lot of people look back and rightfully go, Ugh, get me away from that kind of stuff. But I will say, yeah, I had a very positive experience, what I would call it, yes, a spiritual epiphany moment. And even though I was going to church something about going to church as a kid, it’s so familiar that you actually need, in theater school, we would call it, you actually need something different to make you see what you see all the time. So camp does allow and did for me really allow that because it was just such a different setting and people and dynamic and space.
Adam (00:20:36):
And it was at the end of that first year that I was there that first week where I was like, I’m not going to camp until I was there at the very end after the canoe trip, we do that, the camp is six days long. We’re on the river three nights. And then the last night we’re back at camp and I think that it was raining or something because we would’ve normally gone back up the big hill to the wilderness site on camp. But instead we went to, and I know that because later I was on staff at that camp, so it must’ve been raining or something, or maybe it was raining during the trip and we were exhausted. And they were like, all right, we’re going to give these kids some inside time because we haven’t literally been inside in a week. And so we went to what was called the lodge, which was this old, super old, from the outside looks like a crappy rundown building, but when you’re at camp, some of those buildings are the best.
Adam (00:21:32):
It’s just this super cozy has a fireplace. You never go to a place like this. Yeah, squashy, old armchairs. I would liken it to the Hogwarts common room now where it’s just this super cozy, comfy place. And we’ve been outside and it was probably right in that day or raining on the trip. And we were like, oh, fine, just to be on cushions and to be inside and to be warm. And I remember we did worship, which would be the doing music, not old school hymns, but sort of what would be called Christian contemporary music, Christian music with guitar. And it probably was, I can remember who the counselor would’ve been, it’s probably just him with his guitar. It wasn’t plugged in because this was wilderness camp. We didn’t have the full band and an overhead projector with that, I can hear the buzz of the overhead projector and that orange glow of the transparency with the lyrics to the song either on the wall of the lodge or on one of those little pop-up projector screen from old schools that they don’t even have anymore.
Adam (00:22:45):
And I remember what song we were singing, but mine was unique from yours. But it’s similar in the sense we were in that kind of worship space, air quotes, worship space and singing. And there was a line in one of the songs that just hit me about Jesus and about the death and resurrection of Jesus. Do you remember what song it was? Yeah, it was Here I’m to Worship. And so it has a bridge that says, I’ll never know how much it costs to see my sin upon the cross. And again, I do want to make a disclaimer. A lot of people have these moments when it comes to talking about sin and the cost, and a lot of people experience it in a really bad, toxic, manipulative way where it’s trying to tell you, you’re so bad, how awful you are, and look at what you’ve done.
Adam (00:23:35):
And that’s how it really gets people to either be manipulated or create certain worldviews. So I’m aware of that, and I want to say that’s very real experience for way too many people, but it wasn’t, I do remember specifically you remember feelings. Like I said, I don’t even remember if it was actually raining that day or not. I don’t remember all the specifics of that week, but you remember how you feel. And I remember feeling a very sober sense of weight that there was really, at the end of the day, it wasn’t even about contrition and retribution, and it was about the weight of, there’s something bigger than me or there may be something bigger than me. And if there is, I should probably pay attention and actually start thinking about that. That’s probably not those words exactly, but that’s probably the framing I would’ve had at the time where all of a sudden it just, and what some people would now say in the circles that I run with was a Holy Spirit type moment, a spiritual awakening type moment. And so it wasn’t super emotional for me.
Adam (00:24:44):
I don’t think I cried and wasn’t, and I don’t think in that moment again, to as sort of a uniqueness to yours, this was very, it was the end of the day we’re just in Squashy armchair, one little guitar and a little overhead projector. It was not a service or anything, and there was nothing that was, and no one was doing a sermon about you should be thinking about the cost of your sins, or there was none of that. It was just at the end of, and probably a lot of it was a really good week where I was earlier in the week during the songs as a act of I’m my own person in grade six and I’m whatever my parents are and my parents are here. We would sing the songs. And when the songs would say God or Jesus, I wouldn’t sing that word a rebel, but I think because like, well, I’m not going to be made to sing these songs. And again, I didn’t wasn’t like Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I wasn’t like, I’m an atheist or something like that, or even that. I would’ve said I was agnostic, but just this thing where I’m like, I didn’t really want to come to camp and they’re not, it’s a grade six thing. You’re not going to make me do something if I don’t want to do it. So earlier in the week, I was like, and I didn’t tell anyone about that. I just silently wouldn’t sing those words kind of thing as this act of protest.
Adam (00:26:06):
So then flash forward to this moment where I was like, huh, something about the week. And I think really it was a big thing was the people, obviously my best friend Doug was there, but also the counselors were so, the staff were so a lot of people say this, there’s something about them that I’m like, I want what they have, not just that they’ve got something figured out. Yeah, exactly. Not just that they were funny and charismatic and they’re leading us in a canon trip. So it’s inspiring and you look up to them, but there was something more that you’re like, okay, it’s interesting. So probably during the week I’m starting to think about this. And then this song moment happened and I was like, it was just more of, I wouldn’t even say it was cathartic in a sense, it was just kind of a moment of going, wow, there’s something here.
Adam (00:26:52):
And I can’t even put it into words, but something’s pulling me a magnet to start thinking about this more deeply. So a very different dynamic of the environment, but at the same time, very similar, where just something hits you in a different way and a lot of people, and it happens, they look back and that was a really bad negative thing, and I wish it hadn’t happened. For me, I look back and it was super positive moment, and I didn’t feel, and to this day, I don’t feel any manipulation, and I still know many of the people who are on staff and I know them to be really just great people who do not work in toxic theology and manipulation. So yeah, I look back at it as just, that was the first moment for me where I was like, I want to own this a little bit. I didn’t know for sure. It wasn’t like I’m giving my life to Jesus or something like that. I was just like, I probably would’ve said at the time, I want to think about this more. And it was the first time it mattered to me outside of, I have to go to this camp, or we’re showing up to church on Sunday.
Pronch (00:27:55):
Yeah. I remember when I was doing the leadership camp the following year, there was a moment when we were doing a worship session. We had done, it was the end of the day, had a long day of, I don’t remember where, sorry, I don’t remember what we had been doing. We were at not the camp that I had that I had gone to as a kid, but another one of the camps,
Adam (00:28:18):
Because this camp that we both did later, this leadership camp would travel around to three or four of the different camps that were sort of all in this United Church region.
Pronch (00:28:27):
Dude, you’re so good at context for the listener. You’re so
Adam (00:28:30):
Good. I know’s because I’ve done other podcasts and because I talked to so many people about these camp experiences now,
Pronch (00:28:37):
I really appreciate it, listener. You’re getting the full experience because of Adam. But yeah, so we were at one of the other ones, and I remember for the majority of the worship session, I remember staring at my hands and just being locked, looking at my hands.
Adam (00:28:51):
Interesting.
Pronch (00:28:52):
And then afterwards, we were in our little group talking about just wrapping up the day, and I brought it up to the grip. I was like, guys, I had this moment where I was looking at my hands and they’re like, yeah, we noticed. It was like blatantly, are you
Adam (00:29:05):
High? I was talking to his shoes, man, my shoes are talking to me.
Pronch (00:29:12):
I called figures, but I never see ’em fing. Oh, there they go. But no, I just remember having this moment and telling them afterwards that just noticing the amount of power that I have in my hands to do good, to do bad, to do whatever I want. I’m my own person. I’m my own entity, and these hands can do whatever I want. Interesting. It was a weird thing. It was like 14. How old are you at the leadership
Adam (00:29:37):
Camp? Like 16? Yeah,
Pronch (00:29:38):
15, 16, 15, 16. So yeah, I remember having that moment and I don’t remember what it was that kicked it off. Was it something in the song? Was it something in the day? No idea. I just remember this moment of staring at my hands for a long time and having this moment of these are powerful things. They could do so much.
Adam (00:29:56):
Yeah, that’s fascinating.
Pronch (00:29:59):
Did you ever get baptized or anything like that?
Adam (00:30:02):
I would’ve been baptized. I was baptized as a kid. So in the United Church there are different churches, different denominations. There’s some that do adult baptism, and then there’s some that do infant baptism in the United Church Church, you can also get baptized as an adult. But I had parents who went to church. I had older brothers too. So yeah, I was baptized as a baby. So I’ve never done an adult baptism. Like I said, I’ve had these moments that baptism really represents for a lot of people, these moments of spiritual awakening or epiphany or a lot of things like a spiritual kind of commitment to what we might call in Christian circles like discipleship or following Jesus or becoming a Christian. And again, I’m aware that’s loaded language with a lot of baggage that is valid for a lot of people. But yeah, so I’ve never done an adult baptism myself.
Pronch (00:30:56):
Is something Have you ever wanted to do?
Adam (00:30:59):
Yeah, well, I mean we can kind of get into it and we talk more later about what I do now with most of my time and my work, but I have been part of facilitating adult baptisms for other people who have desired that. And as we’ve done that, it’s crossed my mind, but it’s just never been a thing where I felt like it was a step I felt like I needed to take or was pulled to take. But again, and part of that might be because I had these other versions of what that represents, these other kind of stake in the ground, like watershed moments in my life and in my spiritual life and in my discipleship where I felt like it fulfilled what adult baptism often fulfills for people. So at this point, no, but you never know. Maybe someday I will be like, Hey, I feel the call to do that. It might be spontaneous, it might be pre-thought out, but yeah, so maybe someday.
Pronch (00:32:01):
Yeah, I was as an adult, well, an adult, I’ll put that in quotes. I was perm staff in 2004, so teenager 16, 17, not even legally an adult probably,
Pronch (00:32:15):
But no, we were doing a staff training week at my camp that I was at perm staff on for the listener, perm staff is the staff that’s there permanently. So you get hired and you work the entire summer, all eight weeks of the summer and the week before the summer starts, before the kids start showing up, there’s this kind of staff training and you go and there’s a bunch of different stuff. You kind of learn to grow as a team every year. The staff is slightly different. There’s a lot of people that are the same, but there’s some new ones,
Adam (00:32:46):
There’s team building, there’s orientation over the programming. How do you take care of kids and make sure they don’t fall out of the canoe at night? All that
Pronch (00:32:53):
Good stuff, all that stuff. But there was one afternoon, don’t remember how far into staff training week where this person, I don’t even remember who they were, I’m not even sure that doesn’t matter, but they came and they gave us a group sermon, if you will, to all of us. We were in the main worship hall and there was this whole, I don’t even remember what the sermon was about, but I remember at the end there was a call to Does anybody here want to be baptized? Does anybody want to go down to the lake right now and do this right here, right now? And I thought, oh my gosh, how cool is that? I don’t really go to a church. I don’t really have a church, so this is my church, like the lake at my camp. That’s where I could do this. How freaking cool is that?
Pronch (00:33:43):
And we went down and there was a bunch of, there was some that had already been baptized, but then the director was there doing it. The wilderness camp director was there, the assistant camp, all people that I’ve known for years, and I really love and respect these people. And we went down and I don’t remember if I was nervous to do it or if I was just waiting in, I honestly don’t remember my emotions leading up to it. But I do remember that when want to find the right way to story this out here, I remember specific, okay, what I’ll do is I’ll say the things I remember specifically, and then I’ll try to give a little bit of backpedaling on it. I was being held by multiple people in the lake. Were like three or four feet deep. And I think it was the director of the camp, I think said a prayer and then kind of picked up some water, washed it on me, and then the rest of them kind of dunked me down in the water, got
Adam (00:34:43):
The dunk
Pronch (00:34:44):
And brought me up. And then this is where things got a little odd, and this is where things got a little bit weird. And I think that this is something that had been discussed in the sermon earlier, but there was talk of tongues speaking in tongues. And I was being, as they brought me up, they’re like, yay, whatever. But then they did another prayer and they were trying to encourage me to start speaking in tongues. And I was like, I’m sorry, but again, we’re in this moment. I’m being held by all these people that I really do care about these people. These people are amazing people and I’m being held by them. Eyes are closed. And they’re like, they’re current. Come on, come on. Just open. Just open your mouth, let the sounds come out. And I was still like, what the heck is this? And they may have alluded to this more in the sermon. During the sermon, they may have talked about it more, but I don’t remember specifically. So it’s possible that they gave a little bit more information beforehand, but that I didn’t understand it fully. So I made this sound to make this experience end that I was having,
Adam (00:35:47):
Right? Yeah. Like, okay, done. I’m done. I’m done with this
Pronch (00:35:49):
Part. The dunking was cool, the prayer was cool. The love and the feelings I’m having with all the people around me I love. But this specific thing, not a big fan, this is weird,
Adam (00:36:00):
Fair.
Pronch (00:36:01):
And it made me really uncomfortable. And I ended up, this was also close to the end of the day. So we went to bed, went up to the staff house and went to sleep. But the next day I actually told the director, I was like, I have to leave. And she’s like, what do you mean? I was like, I’ve got to go and I will be back before today is done. And she’s like, okay, okay, sounds good. So I got in my car and I drove to my next door. We’re two and a half hours away from where I live. So I drive to the place where my next door neighbor works. I called her and said, Hey, do you mind if I come and talk to you? She was the most religious person outside of camp that I knew, and she had no relation to the camp experience. So I wanted to go with her and be like, this
Adam (00:36:43):
Happened. I need to unpack this.
Pronch (00:36:45):
Talk to me. What was this? And I don’t even remember anything more about that specific conversation. Again, we’re going back a long time, we’re going back almost 20 years, but I remember her kind of explaining different beliefs and different churches will do different things and different people believe different things. And she kind of explained what tongues was, which I don’t know that I could probably iterate that quickly.
Adam (00:37:09):
Now I can say really briefly, there are some kind of movements within Christian tradition and denominations and churches that tongues, they consider what they call tongues is it’s an idea of what they would believe is a spiritual gift where folks speak in a, they might say like an angelic language or just a language that doesn’t, not a language that exists in any particular region or country or area of the world. And the idea is that it’s sort of this sign of some kind of divine touch that comes out through what would sound like gibberish to someone listening. But the idea is that they purport that there are people who can interpret and actually understand this. And so there would be some people in an audience where someone’s speaking tongues going, I have no idea. What did that person just say? And someone else will say, they said this and this and this and that. There’s this parallel gift of people who can interpret. And so yeah, it’s a specific belief among some Christian traditions of what they would call a spiritual gift.
Pronch (00:38:21):
From your knowledge and working in the United Church system like you do, again, we haven’t gotten to what you do now. Yeah, that’s okay. But at this point, what is the United Church’s stance on
Adam (00:38:34):
Tongues? Is it a thing? So in the United Church, you can kind of believe anything you want for better and worse. Part of the culture is it’s a very, which, and this is a good thing, it’s very open to saying that communities and individuals have the agency and power to determine their experiences and their beliefs and their practices. And so I wouldn’t be able to say specifically if there is a United Church like Doc, it’s very, just to use it as ends of the spectrum, you have a tradition like Roman Catholicism, which is very much, here’s the doctrine and it can evolve a little bit over time. But basically the hope will give a little bit of information. Here’s the doctrine, here’s what goes, what doesn’t go, what we believe, what we don’t believe. Very clear for the most part, very clear cut. The United Church is kind of the other end of that spectrum where it’s very open.
Adam (00:39:32):
And so they’re not big on necessarily this is what we believe or there would definitely some traditions are like, we do not believe that. We do not believe that’s a thing. And then there would be other traditions and Protestant traditions, what often are called charismatic traditions, which would purport that they would practice it heavily and believe in it. And some traditions that would even go so far as to say, unless you speak in tongues, you haven’t actually yet been baptized by the Holy Spirit. So there’s a whole range of beliefs around it. The United Church would, the United Church, not of Canada, would not say specifically to be baptized, you need to speak in tongues. But they probably would also not say that. They would not have a hard doctrine line saying That’s not a thing, or don’t do that. They would sort of fall in the place where they would go, Hey, maybe you had that experience, but if you didn’t, that’s okay too.
Adam (00:40:33):
And I personally would kind line up with that in my experiences. So yeah, that’s not to be a non-answer, but United Church is big on Nonw too, so nice, good point. For better and worse. So there wouldn’t be a specific doctrine on it. But again, with the United Church, because I’ll say this as the last point, it really strives to be a big tent and have diversity within its tradition. And I do objectively believe diversity is a strength. They would certainly make room for communities, individuals, churches that would believe in and practice the gift of speaking in tongues. So just as some context, obviously there were people around you in this experience who were some of those? They were United Church of Canada people, whatever that means, employees. But that was obviously for some of the people, there was something that was part of their beliefs in tradition and practices.
Pronch (00:41:35):
Yeah, yeah. Okay. No, I appreciate the kind of context around that because again, even to this day fully, I don’t work in the church like you do, so I don’t have that back history. Then now that the audience has heard you kind of describe that for us, can you tell who are you, what do you do, what is it that you do and how are you related to the church?
Adam (00:41:56):
Yeah, so I’m Adam and I lead a community called The Hub, and it’s kind of a youth and young adult community network. And we run and help lead events and groups. We have these things called sub hubs, which would be called kind of home churches, which are these small little mini, some people might say like church plant. But there’s these little mini worshiping communities of people who are either seeking to follow Christ or are seeking to grow in love and justice in inclusion. And they meet in living rooms and imagine kind of like a church in somebody’s house, basically a little living room. And so they’ll do spiritual growth together. They’ll go out and have fun and go to the movies and do trivia nights. They’ll do foods like sharing together and they’ll do outreach. They’ll do community service and justice projects together too. So that’s what the hub does.
Adam (00:43:05):
And then we also lead big events where we gather people, sometimes their worship events. Sometimes we just had a big volleyball dodgeball day for youth. And so we run all over Southern Ontario and specifically work alongside teens and 20 somethings. And so that’s our demo. And so I was part of founding and still lead the Hub. And so that was a shift for me. I was trained in and I went to school for film and theater acting, and I still love that, but felt kind of a pull a call to the vision of this thing that we now call the hub. And so I help lead that and I lead both the staff team that runs some of the bigger, the larger events and projects as well as supports these local groups and the leaders of those groups. So I help lead the organization.
Pronch (00:44:04):
And I didn’t actually realize you’re a founder of it, it was your idea or did somebody say, Hey, let’s do this thing and can you do it? Yeah.
Adam (00:44:11):
I hesitate to say it was my idea because I would say that I felt a call, I felt a pull that I would personally use the language and identify. I felt a God pull towards this idea. And I felt that there was inspiration that was beyond me. But yeah, I was one of the founders and kind of the first person to get some people together. I will say I had this idea in me, this kind of moment that I had where it, the idea came upon me was a year of just kind of thinking about it, but nothing happening. And it wasn’t until I gathered a bunch of other amazing people who I’d worked at camp with and said, okay, I’ve got this idea that things actually started to happen. So yes, there was a piece of it for me, but it would never have gotten off the ground without this team that came around the idea because kind of an idea and a vision guy, but I’m not as good at executing.
Adam (00:45:21):
And I had these great people who brought these different gifts and lot, some of them brought this like, okay, how do we do this? How do we actually do it? And part of it was having gone back to camp after being away during my university and my years living in Toronto and acting was, I came back and I rediscovered that as we’ve talked about in these moments that we’ve had, there’s ups and downs, but there’s something special about this community wasn’t just, I have fun at camp. And so going away and then coming back and rediscovering that this camp community and the people and the places and these moments and this kind of culture that we were part of had this really beautiful power and significance. And I remember rediscovering and being like, I had forgotten what, and it was only a few, I was only, this was, I’m talking four or five years, but I’ve been so away from it that when I
Pronch (00:46:18):
Rediscover postsecondary
Adam (00:46:21):
My life,
Pronch (00:46:22):
Working at camps doesn’t pay well. No.
Adam (00:46:24):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And the goal wasn’t like, I want to go back and work at camp. It there’s something about this community that has been at all these different camps and over the years has had other iterations during the school year too. There’s something about it that has this significance and this power and was singularly life-changing for me to be a part of. And that wasn’t just the camps that I worked. I worked at a couple of them. It wasn’t the camps themselves. There was something deeper and wider about the experience. And so when I came back and I volunteered for a couple weeks and kind of tasted it again that I became aware, I was like a, I want this for me, I wanted this again. But also recognizing over the years so many kids and youth have come into this community and their lives have been changed for the better.
Adam (00:47:12):
And not everyone, this is not some utopian society. There’s ups and downs, but so many people have had their lives impacted in a beautiful way. And to what I also noticed as I came back and this rides exactly off what I was just saying of it not perfect. And there was a lot of things after going away that I saw more clearly after having stepped away that were things that we needed to grow in. So as a community, and this certainly a lot in church communities and the United Church, United Church is a beautiful denomination that really commits to justice and an action and inclusion. They were one of the first denominations, I think they were the first nomination in Canada to affirm and ordain to s an LGBTQI plus folks in both membership in the church and in leadership to be ordained. They’re really committed and they put their money where their mouth is in terms of right relations, especially after having been a denomination that was part of residential schools. And they are working repent and to confront that. So there, sorry,
Pronch (00:48:27):
Just before you move on, sorry, can you clear what’s right? Relations? That’s actually not a term I’ve heard.
Adam (00:48:31):
So there’s a good criticism of the term reconciliation because it implies that a relationship was positive to begin with. And of course that is objectively not the case across Turtle Island when it comes to settlers and the indigenous communities whose land this is. So the unit church is very, very, very committed to justice and inclusion, anti-racism, growing in decolonizing practices and what would be called affirmation, which is the full inclusion embrace celebration without question of the two-spirit and lgbtqia plus community. But it is also overwhelmingly a denomination that has folks who still would identify as white. And so it is very committed to those things, but it has a lot of growing to do and is still very much holds many of its practices, especially its money in its business practices within a colonial imagination, which I would be a person to identify that that’s not justice in action.
Adam (00:49:45):
So I say all that to say that it is a very justice oriented and inclusive denomination, but again, because of what I mentioned earlier where there’s diversity is a good thing, but it also means it can make room for not great things. When I returned to the community after having been away, I really saw with, and this I would also call one of those spiritual epiphany moments or I would a come to Jesus moment where I really saw where our community that was really important for me had deep, deep problems in terms of interesting latent racism from the colonial imagination. We are very white community, this camp community overwhelmingly white. And this is not a community that exists in one small town where there’s only 60,000 people and most of ’em are white. This is a community that is across southern Ontario. And so the demographics don’t line up when you look at then, well, why should we be this overwhelmingly white that there’s something to examine there?
Adam (00:50:51):
And so I saw that. I also saw even within this community that there was a lot of under, not super visible when you first approach it, but there were foundations of homophobia and transphobia as well that really ran through this. And later as I started to see this and understand how all of those things I’ve named racism, homophobia, transphobia, heteronormativity, how I also have internalized and been a part of those things, how I heard and understood experiences of other people, people, black and indigenous folks who were part of the community, LBQ, folks who are part of the community who had a radically different experience with this community than I did as someone who is at the intersections of most points of privilege and power. And so that really was a come to Jesus awakening, spiritual awakening, epiphany moment for me going, wow, this community has been so powerful and life-changing and beautiful for so many of us and me included, but it has also been really, really harmful and to the point of toxic to folks who experience intersections of diversity or who are part of populations that have been targeted by racism, capitalism, colonialism.
Adam (00:52:26):
And so I held both of these things and said, what do I do with that? And at the same time, having this vision of wanting to, to be able to see this thing called the hub created where we continue growing outside of just the camp year. The thing was we would get together during the school year, we would take this vibrancy and energy and commitment to loving our neighbor and bring it into our lives outside of the years we’re at camp and outside of the months of the year that we’re at camp and saying, these are things we need to recognize that there’s a beauty and there’s a power, but there’s also problems. And that to me just to then go on, just kind of cap it off, that to me lines up with what it has meant to me personally in my subjective walk to follow Jesus, which is recognizing that there is deep need for healing and liberation in the world.
Adam (00:53:28):
And there are forces, authorities, principalities of injustice and impression and discrimination and exclusion. And so we need to be able to be sustained and have hope and walk and recognize the beauty while also saying we want to, or Christian word would be like, repent. We need to turn away from the things that are harming. And so both of these things were things that I wanted to see us grow in. I wanted the beauty of the community to be able to be experienced by more people. Like it was experienced by me, but also I wanted to see us as a community. And I felt Holy Spirit saying we as a community have room and a need to grow beyond many of these ways that we don’t even recognize our points of exclusion, discrimination, and oppression. So going away was what allowed me to come back and kind of see those things that I didn’t see while I was in it.
Adam (00:54:25):
And so the need to grow as a community and to do better and the power and beauty of the community were what spurred me to want to kind of start to do that work and have the hub be a place where we could do that work, both kind of sides of the coin for lack of a better term. So that was what ended up kind of leading me back to spending more and more of my time over the years and now with my full-time on in what some would call ministry. And I think of it as community leadership and being able to grow together as a community and to love our neighbor, to do right and to do good things, which I do believe that there are objective, good and right things, and the work of growing and confronting oppression and things like homophobia and racism are good things that we should be doing.
Adam (00:55:24):
And that churches, especially church communities, because they’ve been inextricably tied to the colonial project, need to be the first ones to be starting to repent and to work to undo the harm that so many churches and that the Christian tradition has done in so many ways. So that’s a long rant to say that the hub’s mission is we live to connect young people with the liberating love of Christ and empower them to build a more just and inclusive world and a healthy planet where no one is left out in the cold. And so Jesus and justice and inclusion, and again, those words aren’t always perfect, but these are three words that we use to kind of say, this is what we want to be our, we believe that Jesus is the embodiment of liberation and justice and radical of all people, and flourishing of all people. And we want to connect teens and 20 somethings with that experience themselves and to be able to build that out into the world more and more.
Pronch (00:56:37):
That is so I didn’t know.
Adam (00:56:40):
Yeah, we’ve never talked about the depth or that we’ve done stuff together and I’ve had you come and do stuff at the Hub. But yeah, we’ve never talked about, that’s a lot of the origins that went into it. This is a community that made such difference in my life, but also was harmful to so many people and just saying, okay, if this is my community, I don’t just get to check out and say, oh, I don’t do that camp stuff anymore. I need to be part of us doing better. And that was a lot of what my personal, I felt that call from God was.
Pronch (00:57:12):
Yeah, that is really, really cool. And it actually really does lead into why I wanted to have this podcast with you, why I wanted to talk with you.
Adam (00:57:20):
That’s great. You haven’t told me that part yet. I
Pronch (00:57:22):
Haven’t told you yet. I mean, all this has been just who are we and where are we coming from? This is basically everything you just described is one of, not that solely, one of the reasons that I personally am an atheist. I actually am not Christian. I’m not religious by any means, and I criticize mentally, and I’ve never criticized externally the idea of Christianity or religion as a whole. And I wanted to talk with you who you are in this world and learn and find out why you saw everything you just described. Everything you just described. But the injustice and the separations and the church not including people and all that is just one of the things that in my mind goes, that’s just evidence that there is no guiding force. If there was a guiding force, that type of stuff wouldn’t happen. But the idea of the in-group and the idea of I am a part of these people and you are not a part that’s very much the divisiveness that you can get with evolution.
Pronch (00:58:33):
It’s the division this you can get with. We are unguided beings who are, we protect our own. And the ideas and everything you’ve described, it’s just so, so cool and fascinating to hear. That’s why the Hub exists because in my mind, that’s humanism. That’s the idea of looking out for your fellow human and caring for everyone because we are alone. We are the only ones here in my worldview. And I don’t want this conversation to be me trying to convince you or you trying to convince me. I want it to be us talking about what we believe, why we believe, and where do the beliefs come from. That’s my hope. If you’re interested after this episode, we record here
Adam (00:59:17):
For sure. And I appreciate the lens that you come into that. I didn’t even know that about you. We’ve never talked about that specifically. And so I appreciate that you’re also bringing it with the lens of genuine curiosity and genuine desire to learn and grow from each other. Certainly. I don’t really dedicate much time to debates or anything like that just because, and not because I don’t feel like I have a position to defend or that someone else’s position isn’t worth hearing, but because we know in our culture that we have have a real, in 21st century Turtle Island, north America, whiteness is about like, well, lemme just tell you what I think about it. And there’s already a ton of that, and we’re part of that too, as two folks who grew up identifying with the colonial imagination and presenting as white. And that’s what the podcast field is just soaked with
Pronch (01:00:22):
Two dudes talking mostly cis, straight white males.
Adam (01:00:25):
Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I’m very aware of that. And so that’s why also everybody listening should always even take what I’m saying with a big, huge dose of salt. Because again, like I said, I grew up at the centers of all these different intersections of privilege and power, but I really appreciate that you genuinely, and yeah, we’re friends, and I know you and I know you’re, and this is what’s beautiful and what is compelling and exciting to me is we would probably agree on so much almost everything. And so I would say absolutely when it comes to talking about what you would call humanism, awesome. Great. I don’t really get hung up on language needing to be a barrier. And I personally don’t think that the divine, I’ll use the word God and Christ in Jesus. I don’t think that they get hung up on it either. So I think that’s great. I would say for me personally, and again when I should be very careful what I say, we as the hub, because we are a diverse community of lots of people who believe different things. Of course
Pronch (01:01:34):
Not. You can’t speak for all of those
Adam (01:01:35):
People. And there would be people within our community too, who would and have talked to me about, they believe very different things. And we do want to be a place where anyone can come. We don’t want to make room for harm, particularly, a lot of times diversity can make room for then just status quo, continuing to be the dominant system. And so it’s a hard thing that we don’t really even, we’re still learning how to do, is how do we make sure that those who have been targeted and attempted to been made marginalized, how are those people actually able, the ones to lead us and to be centered? And yet also how are we able to be a space where someone can come in and grow. So there be people who believe different things than me, but I would definitely say what some people would identify in humanism and what we would be distinct from.
Adam (01:02:35):
Okay. To see also just admit we’re distinct. There’s a real white thing of we all believe the same thing, which is erasure of people’s distinct beliefs and experiences in the worldview. So where I would say it would be distinct is personally I do, I would, for lack of a better word, profess or believe in this idea that the divine force of the universe came to earth as a person. And that was Jesus of Nazareth who was, and this is what I love to say because, and I think it’s true, it was a dark skinned revolutionary who upended social systems radically included, confronted oppressors and oppression and was executed by the state for it. And I do believe that he was resurrected. And so that would be for some people who would say then what traditionally would be known as humanism to us, that would be where there would be an important distinction.
Adam (01:03:34):
But would I be comfortable, personally, if you’re asking me to say that Jesus is a humanist, of course, love thy neighbor is about, we need to care for each other. And it runs deeper than that. And there’s more nuance as we go deeper into, as I’ve gone deeper into my walk with Jesus, especially about how those who have been pushed to the margins will be those who lead us and who teach us and take us somewhere. But yes, absolutely. I believe that love thy neighbor is a humanist position to take and that that’s a beautiful thing.
Pronch (01:04:17):
Yeah. I think that this could be a really, really neat conversation ongoing because of our shared history. And I don’t mean our friendship. I mean the fact that we have very similar stories up to a certain point, we were both middle class white guys who went to church camp and became staff,
Adam (01:04:39):
And this community is where is the
Pronch (01:04:41):
Reason
Adam (01:04:41):
That you were part of is where the hub came from and is still, in many ways is part of the hub. So you have been part of what we now just call, you’ve been part of this community too.
Pronch (01:04:52):
Yeah, exactly. I have, and I still have great admiration for the people in this community. I am still great friends with a lot of the people that I have been, that I met through these camps and through this community and through the previous iterations of what, I wouldn’t say that of what The Hub is now.
Adam (01:05:09):
Yeah, I know what you’re talking about. Yeah. There were other school year programming communities that existed before. The Hub is not revolutionary or new, the first in any way. It’s a unique expression of the community in the past few years.
Pronch (01:05:26):
Yeah. So just because of that shared history we have, I think it’d be really, really interesting to see why each of us believes what we believe in, where we go from there. But yeah, that’s all I really had idea for today.
Adam (01:05:41):
That’s probably enough for today. We really, I think so we’ve run the gamut. Yeah.
Pronch (01:05:45):
Yeah, I think so. I think that you and I can go away from here offline and discuss which way do we want to take the conversation. I’ve got a bunch of ideas in my head about do we want to do this in a season format where one of the things that I would love to do, I know this much, and for the listener who, because I’m really good at podcasting, I’m holding up my fingers less than an inch away from each other. I know this much about how the Bible came to be. I know the Nazarian Council is a thing, and that’s when the ene, yeah, ene ene. I don’t even know the name words. I know that council’s a thing and that there was a bunch of different books. Some were included, some were not included. And the Catholics have the apocrypha and that there’s additional books there that other churches don’t have. The Mormons have their book, and Jehovah’s Witnesses have
Adam (01:06:36):
S and lines churches have their, yep, absolutely.
Pronch (01:06:39):
So kind of finding out together with you, I don’t know if you, you’ve never had any formal schooling in No.
Adam (01:06:46):
Yeah, I’m not a rev. And so that should also be said too, in these conversations, I am what would be called in churchy language, like a lay person, which is just someone who is, I didn’t go to seminary and I went to school film theater, acting. Loved it. And so you should also be aware. I am, I can speak on a little bit that I know, and I’ll probably, there’ll be a big batch of, oh, no, that’s wrong in with what I know, because I’m just, even if
Pronch (01:07:13):
You were educated,
Adam (01:07:14):
I’m not an expert. Yeah, yeah. I mean that’s true too. Yeah. And I mean, I’m not here to say that again. Academia is also a very colonial institution. So I’m not here to say that the only people we should trust are people who’ve gone to these capitalist white run institutions for the last 200 years. But I do want to say that as a big dose of humility, as I’m certainly not an expert, and I’m sure I’ll be wrong, be corrected. And there are people in the hub community who definitely in terms of historiography, histori of tradition and the Bible and the person of Jesus have done much more intentional academic training and study than me. But that’s also not to tell, sell myself short, because I also like, this is what I’m passionate about. And I love to, I’ve loved learning in my own ways for many years and learning especially, and this is the biggest thing that I’ve learned, especially learning from black and indigenous and persons of color in the church and LGBTQ plus theologians, because again, I really personally believe that we need to be learning from those who have previously been voices that have been shut out because they have truth and wisdom that is suppressed by the colonial imagination in us, who are people who grew up in intersections of privilege and power and whiteness.
Adam (01:08:42):
So I have learned a ton from much smarter and much more wise people.
Pronch (01:08:49):
And honestly, honestly, that’s one of the main reasons why I wanted to talk with you is because you described yourself earlier three sentences ago as a layperson. And I would describe myself as a layperson as well. I obviously listened to many podcasts and I listened to many people who would be considered, I guess, experts in the field, people who’ve written books, but I’ve never read their books. But I also haven’t really read the Bible. I’ve read the sections that we were always told to read, and I know a lot of random bits and pieces throughout, but I think that hanging out with you and talking with you will be really, really neat. Two lay persons coming from very different perspective, looking at the same thing. And that’s what I really want to do. So yeah, let’s see what we can create.
Adam (01:09:40):
I love it. Yeah. Great. Awesome. So yeah, thanks for being willing, prompt to bring me in and again, being willing to say, Hey, I just have an idea. And you didn’t even give me a sense of what we wanted to talk about, which was great. I like it. It was fun and surprising, and I didn’t know what we were going to talk about. So thanks for inviting me into this conversation and into these conversations that we want to have going forward too. We’ll see.
Pronch (01:10:07):
We’ll, what happens? I’m really glad that you weren’t opposed the idea of coming in blind. No,
Adam (01:10:12):
That was fun. That was so fun.
Pronch (01:10:13):
Thought it was really important to have it be a completely genuine conversation up to, well, the whole thing, I want the whole thing to be genuine. But yeah, I really liked the idea of just let’s talk. Talk about who we are, what we are, why we are, and then drop the bomb at the end, if you will.
Adam (01:10:30):
Love it. Love it.
Pronch (01:10:32):
Yeah. Awesome. Alright, well I’ll talk to you later.
Adam (01:10:34):
Talk to y’all later.
